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+--- Thread: Appearance fees for our best players (/thread-155.html)
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Angus McDonald - 23-12-2011
Mike,
The thread proves that the comments about the performance in Brazil were made.
There was no need for it! Saying in effect that half the results were obtained against filler players does ofcourse belittle the result obtained. The use of the word 'filler' is quite specific. You arn't trying to be objective about that.
Clement and Calum are involved in coaching juniors. Correct!
My understanding is that they are being paid for it.
There comments should be supportive of the juniors and emphasise what was good about their performance.
I could prove just how the Brazil results compare with other prior results at Euroyouth and World Youth.
But I won't go there. It's unhelpful!!
Also Mike, you arn't interested in being objective about things. You have made your mind up that you want an elite squad. I favour giving the opportunity to as many juniors as possible. I actually don't think anyone has the right to stop the best juniors in Scotland at specific age groups going to these events if they wish to go. It should be freedom of choice with the proviso you have gained your position by merit by being one of the strongest players in Scotland at your age group.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Angus McDonald - 23-12-2011
As for tournaments in the summer 2012.
Our priorities will be 'The Scottish' and then 'The Glorney' Hopefully later in the year Ian might play one of 'The Euroyouth' or 'The World Youth' Hopefully by then he'll have picked himself up from only beating Brazilians and Argentinians in Brazil and having that fact highlighted. Brazilians and Argentinians that all had GMs and IMs helping them with their preparation and had been preparing for a year for the novelty and excitement of having the World Youth on Latin American soil.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Hugh Brechin - 23-12-2011
Angus, can you please start playing the ball rather than the man? It's becoming extremely irritating. Everybody here has a different perspective on junior tournaments. Heaven only knows why you think that those who have recently played in them are unqualified to opine. You can disagree with them. You evidently do. And that's absolutely fine. But can you please respect their right to outline their views, as you are able to outline yours. The fact that Clement and Calum are neither currently available for selection nor the parents of juniors who are no more invalidates their views than does the fact that they are much better at chess than most other respondents to this thread mean that only their contributions should be considered (though it might be worth bearing in mind).
Find me one thing that either Clement or Calum has said which slates or belittles the achievements of any Scottish junior. Pointing out that a lot of points have been achieved against players from host nations is stating a fact. As coaches, they are suggesting that there may be better ways of developing junior chess in this country than by prioritising filling every selection place for the Worlds and Euros. That's a legitimate position.
Quote:There comments should be supportive of the juniors and emphasise what was good about their performance.
Their comments should be truthful and considered. As long as they're that, and as long as they're not slating anyone - and I struggle to see how you construe anything they've said as an attack on anyone - then that's fine. Disagree by all means, but don't attack their right to contribute.
Quote:Also Mike, you arn't interested in being objective about things. You have made your mind up that you want an elite squad
Whereas your willingness to consider the alternative positions put forward by others shines through everything you say.
Sorry Angus, this really has turned into a bit of a rant. I'd like to emphasise that I do have an enormous amount of respect for the work you have put into junior chess for some years now - just a bit annoyed by the line you've been taking throughout this thread.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Angus McDonald - 23-12-2011
Hugh,
You could ask Calum and Clement to do the same thing. There was no need to go where they went.
Off to work. Will answer in full tonight.
Angus
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Mike Scott - 23-12-2011
Angus,
Quote:The thread proves that the comments about the performance in Brazil were made
So what?
Quote:There comments should be supportive of the juniors and emphasise what was good about their performance.
If one is serious about trying to improve players performance you can not just look at the positives - how can you correct the negatives unless you understand their causes?
To do so does need tact and perhaps some time between the event and the discussion but I really do not think anyone would do so to in anyway blame the players or put them down. No one who is serious above improving their chess looks only at their wins or good moves. In my experience with juniors they always find plenty of good moves, its the bad 'uns that hold them back.
How often did we hear comments about how close games were but were lost by 1or2 last minute bad moves?
Quote:Clement and Calum are involved in coaching juniors. Correct!
My understanding is that they are being paid for it.
So what? These guys do not have their own income as you and I do and go well beyond the call of paid duty e.g. going with the team to Scotsman or UK team events; attending the league days at Wester Hailes...
Being paid is not a bad thing!
Quote:Also Mike, you arn't interested in being objective about things. You have made your mind up that you want an elite squad. I favour giving the opportunity to as many juniors as possible.
?? Yes I have a view - which is about actually about having in effect a number of squads including an elite one - and sure I believe I'm right otherwise I wouldn't hold the view but I am interested in discussing it as I know there are weakness: trouble is you don't seem to understand the proposal as you focus purely on one short term aspect of it, And concentrate on putting down others views on emotional grounds rather than by addressing the arguements.
My proposal does not exclude the possibility of increased numbers going to the worlds/euros in the longer term if standards are increased. The proposal also supports giving opportunity to as many juniors as possible but at a level that is appropriate to their playing strength&experience.
Quote:I could prove just how the Brazil results compare with other prior results at Euroyouth and World Youth.
But I won't go there. It's unhelpful!!
Why would it be unhelpful? If things were done differently and resulted in improved performances than surely this is useful information?
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Andrew McHarg - 23-12-2011
Angus is right though Hugh. =) ...imo
Mike, Calum and Clement are looking at it from a "the juniors must be good at Chess to benefit from going", which isn't neccesarily true for everyone. Every junior is different - some might be disheartened by losing to better players, others might find it a motivation to get better. We should not pre-judge their self-determination. Perhaps say to them if you think they will find it tough and not to expect any easy games - but don't tell they can't go because they have no chance of doing anything.
Alex, it's a terrible shame when something like that happens, but am I right in thinking it's pretty rare with Chess? Also: did the girl in question never get any consistent encouragement afterward to take things up again at a casual level and rebuild her confidence - as I think that would have been my approach?
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Andrew McHarg - 23-12-2011
Incidentally, can Clement or Calum advise how they actually do their coaching? Is it online-based, OTB or... ? Is there anything that CS can do to make it easier - from a technological perspective or otherwise?
It's really been on my mind for about a year that we aren't maximising our use of technology (as a nation) - to improve training opportunities. It's something that I'd like to see discussed and implemented as soon as possible. Am happy to help from a technical viewpoint when I get time, but need to know what's required first.
I.E: would it be beneficial to have frequent training sessions at £x each listed on the website that people can pay via paypal and login to. My idea was that you'd have brief info on what the lecture was about, duration, coach, level aimed at etc... with nominal fees to pay the coach. Good or bad idea?
A
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - AndrewGreen - 23-12-2011
Andy that would be perfect! This is what I dreamt of when I mentioned the online coaching a few months ago. I was thinking a list of coaches with a picture and a wee blurb stating - style of coaching, rates and a rating limit on students the coach will take on (I think 200 points is about right). You could also then add other things for example: general lectures or tournament overviews for the latest congress. I have no idea how difficult this would be to setup? I would love to see it though! The coaching is done through Skype and Playchess.
As for the debate I think Clement, Calum and Mike are correct. In my opinion it is highly logical to build up to the Euros. If the juniors are playing in a weekend congress we put them in the appropriate section, we do not fire them straight into the open. Finding opponents that are the same level to slightly stronger is a lot more beneficial than playing someone who is clearly stronger. If we can find tournaments that provide the same format as the Euros, we will be achieving all the advantages of sending a squad to the Euros plus the advantage of better games. Alex mentioned a case of someone losing morale; I have seen a large number of these myself also. With the online coaching initiative starting to roll I have no doubt that there will be a dramatic increase in strength anyway and that we will have to send more kids to the Euros as they are ready for it.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Calum MacQueen - 23-12-2011
Angus,
Firstly I apologise for my previous post: I didn't mean to cause any offence and of course it was never my intention to belittle the achievements of any other players.
My point was it seems unnecessary to send a massive squad to the worlds at probably great expense when there are other options available. I only went to one individual worlds tournament and now look? I'm provisionally 14th on the live list; it hasn't done me any harm not going. Instead I gathered experience at the European U18 team (maybe something we should look into sending a team to again?) and many British champs. Alex makes a very good point about hidden costs of extra coaches and other such things. My point is that the Worlds/Euros are overrated to some degree.
Also, I'm I not objective? I don't have any relations in line for selection and know many of the players reasonably well.
Interesting would be input from Jacob et al here as they are the players in Scotland who really know how to make top players.
Andrew (McH), I have one student face to face but over skype and playchess seems to be working great. It's an interesting idea having frequent training sessions like you suggest and it seems like something we should look into. There is of course no replacement for over-the-board coaching and I know Robin has some ideas regarding that as well.
Calum
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Clement Sreeves - 23-12-2011
Angus, you have misunderstood where Calum and myself are coming from. We were in no way singling out the performance at this year's World Youth. Actually I thought overall it compares favourably with other recent World/Euros, with most of our players putting in strong performances sometimes way over their rating. 2 players scored 50% or better, which is a phenomenal achievement in these tournaments, one that at least I was never close to achieving when I played them.
All I mean by a filler player, is one that played because it was held in Brazil, and presumably would not have taken part if it were held in Russia. This does not mean that they are bad players, or that it is easy to win points off them! It is clear however that they are mostly towards the weaker end of the field, and that if they had not been playing, our scores would have been lower- I don't think this is really disputable.
Again I want to make it clear that I am not belittling anyone- it can easily be checked that for the most part we finish in the bottom half of the field whenever we play these tournaments. The only reason I used the World Youth in Brazil was because it was the closest at hand. The fact that many of our players there put in excellent performances only helps my argument- we still finished for the most part in the bottom half.