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+--- Thread: AGM (/thread-1038.html)
Re: AGM - David Deary - 13-08-2014
robin moore Wrote:I will try again to the elusive Mr Hilton
I would hardly call Steve elusive, he has replied to you countless times and yet you continue to scare monger... :p
Re: AGM - robin moore - 13-08-2014
David,
As other posters on this thread have pointed out, he has replied to me but refuses to give a direct yes or no answer which increases confusion on this motion.
Re: AGM - Andy Howie - 13-08-2014
I have been in meetings today for 13 hours (anyone who thinks the Delegate is on a junket is sadly mistaken!!) just managed to get something to eat before the canteen closed.
My understanding is as follows.
These "guidelines" (and I use " deliberately) have to be enforced for FIDE events. That has been decided by various committees this week. I have minutes with me and will bring them to the AGM for anyone who wishes to take a read of them.
We can decide on Chess Scotland events that are non FIDE rated at the AGM however I would suggest that it is prudent that Official CS events follow FIDE guidelines in case of dispute.
All other events, it is up to the organiser, they are simply guidelines (note no "")
Re: AGM - Andy Howie - 13-08-2014
StevieHilton Wrote:Adam Bremner Wrote:A lot of interest in this motion!
Can I just get something clarified Steve, ideally with a straight yes or no. If the motion goes through, would Edinburgh Chess Club be able to use their premises to hold open events such as Winter Chess (lower sections) and the Elite Armageddon?
If yes, then great. If no, then surely you can appreciate a word change from must to should. These events can only take place because the venue is privately owned, and the hosting of them is in the interest of all chess players in Scotland. I am sure you wouldn't want these events to fold, especially when there has never been an issue in the past regarding access. Perhaps the way round it is that any new venues going forward must comply, but existing venues should be allowed to continue under the proviso they make every reasonable effort to accommodate disabled players, as is currently the case.
Adam,
There is nothing to stop Edinburgh CC holding these events, but unless alternative supervised accommodation is found for those who need it then it cannot be FIDE rated.
Unless of course, there is no disabled person entering...
Re: AGM - Andy Howie - 13-08-2014
I am heading to bed, I have had a 14 hour and 13 hour day and I am really tired. If there are any further questions, I hope you don't mind but I will answer in the morning
Re: AGM - robin moore - 13-08-2014
In fact let's make it easier....
To the seconder of this motion, Andy Howie, is this motion (if passed ) enforceable?
I will try yet again to the elected Executive director of ChessScotland....
Yes or no ?
Re: AGM - Matthew Turner - 13-08-2014
These are guidelines and in the main they are things that organisers should have in the back of their mind anyway. It is not up to a club or an event to ensure it's venue is accessible, because the venue would have to do that to be compliant with the law.
If a disabled player was due to play in a match at Troon, what would happen? Surely, a reasonable attempt would be made to accommodate this? Playing that one match elsewhere. The thrust of the guidelines is right; In fact they merely crystallise what in generally happening at the moment anyway.
I think there are a few minor changes which would improve the guidelines, but I don't think they are going to have some radical impact on Scottish Chess.
Guideline 3 reads
"All chess venues must either be accessible to all, or an acceptable alternative venue with full supervision shall be available to those who cannot access the nominated venue."
Lets make this
All chess venues must either be accessible to all, or make all reasonable efforts to provide an acceptable alternative venue with full supervision suitable for all players unable to access the nominated venue.
Guideline 5 is a potentially a bit odd if you think about it
"No disabled player shall be penalised in accordance with the Laws of Chess because of disability."
If a player has a disability where they keep falling asleep then can they not lose on time - surely not. As far as I can see this guideline is just unnecessary.
Guideline 11 I think goes too far
"11. If a disabled player cannot press his own clock, move his own pieces, or keep score an assistant shall be available"
I don't think it is a good idea to explicitly promise to provide an assistant. This can and will happen, but putting as a specific rule/guideline might be asking for trouble. What if dyslexic players want someone to write down their games. I would prefer that organisers should
Make all reasonable efforts to provide assistance, rather than committing them to providing assistants.
Re: AGM - Hugh Brechin - 13-08-2014
Andy Howie Wrote:Unless of course, there is no disabled person entering...
Aha. That's handy. So it's a 'if this situation arises, which it might not, we'll do our best to deal with it' rather than a 'we cannot hold these tournaments'. It'd be a shame if FIDE-rated tournaments stopped being held there, it's a great venue (and, you know, owned by a chess club) and lord knows we don't have enough FIDE-rated tournaments as it is.
As I say, I don't think there's really any future whatsoever in attempting to make a stand against this motion (though whether it is susceptible to amendments or flexible interpretation is a more interesting question), and I think it's a good thing that we're looking to be more explicitly inclusive of the disabled.
(Also, I worry that we're beginning to give the impression that Edinburgh Chess Club play their matches atop an inaccessible peak surrounded by a moat of lava and guarded by tetchy dragons - it's one flight of stairs and has a side room which can be utilised; 'disabled' is not a binary characteristic and I'm hopeful that a lot of people would still be able to manage.)
Re: AGM - George Murphy - 13-08-2014
Hugh
There’s none so blind as those who wear blinkers. So, I’m very pleased/relieved to see you introduce some common sense. There are many forms of disability. Getting a wheel chair up to Alva Street 1/F may be difficult but other chess players who are impaired may very well be able to climb the stairs under their own steam: blind, lame, limbless (i.e no arms as in Thalidomide Baby, for example) are obvious examples. I think the thread - sadly - has deteriorated as the day has gone on. Some people it seems just want to throw ‘stones', forgetting the Biblical invocation: Let he who is among you without (fault) cast the first stone.
Right, I’m off tc bed.
George
Re: AGM - Andy Howie - 14-08-2014
robin moore Wrote:In fact let's make it easier....
To the seconder of this motion, Andy Howie, is this motion (if passed ) enforceable?
I will try yet again to the elected Executive director of ChessScotland....
Yes or no ?
Robin, I have given you an answer prior to going to bed. Yes / No doesn't answer it!
For Fide rated Events it is now part of the rules hence motion has no effect, it is in force
for non Chess Scotland events, we can't force organisers to follow therefore they can be described as guidelines for them
The AGM needs to decide if they want to enforce for Chess Scotland events, the same as with the edict on having to use a Chess Scotland Arbiter for Chess Scotland events (which mirrored FIDE's edict on Arbiters for FIDE events!).
So there are several possibilities at the AGM (only concerning Chess Scotland Events)
1. They agree with the guidelines and will enforce for Chess Scotland events
2. They agree with the guidelines and will recommend for Chess Scotland events
3. They reject the guidelines completely with respect to Chess Scotland Events
It is not yes or no but one of the three above that will be the outcome
I can't put it more simply than this