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+--- Thread: Recognition for Chess in Scotland (/thread-410.html)
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Mike Mitchell - 18-10-2012
Personally I can't wait until somebody uses the term "Holyrood Hippogriff" as a political barb
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Andy Howie - 18-10-2012
Derek Howie Wrote:Andy Howie Wrote:Without turning this into a political debate, I have spoken to ministers about this. The main issue is that it would really need to change in the whole of the UK. Depending how the vote goes in 2014 it may be easier for us to be recognised as a sport as it could be a single government we would have to deal with.
Another pro-independence post from a CS director
Actually Derek, no, it is a statement of fact. Let me express this a different way, are we better to push it now and fight the battle in two places at once, or wait until 2014 and see what happens there where we could be in a position of just having to fight a single battle.
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Mike Mitchell - 18-10-2012
Is that not making a bit of an assumption though Andy, that the vote will go a certain way, and we might lose two years of potential progress in the meantime if it doesn't?
Not that I am saying we are doing nothing about it currently, I suspect if anything the opposite is true. What is the present situation on relations with the Scottish Government as far as funding is concerned? I assume that that is who we are dealing with, and that the ECF approach it via the UK Government. What about the Welsh Chess Union, do they deal with the Welsh Assembly?
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Alex McFarlane - 18-10-2012
I think I can answer that.
Currently, this is seen as a UK issue. Some work has been done by the ECF but usually comes to nothing with every cabinet reshuffle.
Believe it or not there are tax implications in this too. As an example chess is liable for VAT on venue hire, if it were a sport this would not be the case. Recognising chess as a sport is more complicated because it would mean altering various pieces of legislation to reflect the change.
In the past the government has claimed that it must be a united application from all parts of the UK. Both Scotland and Wales have been reluctant to give full support as funding from the respective Education Departments could be at risk.
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Andy Howie - 18-10-2012
Mike Mitchell Wrote:Is that not making a bit of an assumption though Andy, that the vote will go a certain way, and we might lose two years of potential progress in the meantime if it doesn't?
Not that I am saying we are doing nothing about it currently, I suspect if anything the opposite is true. What is the present situation on relations with the Scottish Government as far as funding is concerned? I assume that that is who we are dealing with, and that the ECF approach it via the UK Government. What about the Welsh Chess Union, do they deal with the Welsh Assembly?
The key is the word could. The best time to attempt something like this would be on the back of a successful Commonwealth Championships where we hopefully have a bit of momentum
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Mike Mitchell - 18-10-2012
Andy Howie Wrote:The best time to attempt something like this would be on the back of a successful Commonwealth Championships where we hopefully have a bit of momentum
This I understand and agree with. A showcase event that is well supported by our national playing population (at all levels) would be a major boost to any attempted change.
Alex McFarlane Wrote:In the past the government has claimed that it must be a united application from all parts of the UK. Both Scotland and Wales have been reluctant to give full support as funding from the respective Education Departments could be at risk.
Alex are you referring to CS and the WCU when you mention reluctance (i.e. if we supported a UK wide application then our funding might be curtailed by the Scottish Government's Education Department). Why would they curtail funding - would it be a case of "If you want it to be UK wide, then petition the UK Government for your funding and not us." Or am I reading you wrong?
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Alex McFarlane - 18-10-2012
Yes I meant CS and WCU.
With cutbacks in government spending there was a concern that a 'transfer' from one area of responsibility to another would be seen as an excuse to end the grant and apply for sports funding instead.
I believe the Sports Council for England has told the ECF that even if it was recognised they would not look favourably on an application for funding.
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Keith Ruxton - 18-10-2012
Alex's last post is, I think, the most important point: getting reclassified as a sport may be the worst thing that could happen.
I looked into this a little when we did Rampant Chess and were wanting to wrap the proceeds in some kind of charitable trust structure. That was a while ago and the rules vary UK v Scotland but regardless of the details my opinion is as follows:
Currently Chess sits within the 'Education' bucket (and hence has to fight for funds in cometition with other educational activites) and legal reclassification would push it into the 'Sport' bucket (where it would have to fight for funds in conjunction with other sports).
The problem is that even if chess was *legally* recognised as a sport it is never (well, most likely never) going to be *culturally* recognised as a sport in the UK - not by the man in the street and certainly not by the funding directors of sport budgets who are likely to be people who have spend much of their lives running and jumping about! This is not to say there may not be some advantages (University funding maybe, VAT rules etc) but there is a huge risk that this backfires.
The difference between UK and somwehere like India is that, in the later, Chess is recognised legally and culturally as a sport so the problem disappears.
In short, trying to have chess legally recognised as a sport is, in my opinion, a bad idea as it will require enormous amounts of lobbying and if achieved could put us in a worse situtation than before.
Obviously this is just my own opinion and I have been wrong before: In 1986 I though I'd made a mistake, of course it turns out I was right all along but I was wrong to think that I was wrong... =)
Keith
Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Douglas Bryson - 18-10-2012
"...I think the entire ‘Chess as a Sport’ movement is completely misguided. Chess certainly has the competitive qualities of a sport, and physical fitness plays a role in maintaining concentration for long periods, but the lack of any physical skill or technique disqualifies it from the accepted definition of a sport as it is understood by virtually everyone who isn’t a chess player with a vested interest. The game has enough positive qualities to be promoted on its own merits, without resorting to questionable semantic trickery.
As far as I’m concerned, chess is an absolutely wonderful game and it fully deserves the kind of funding afforded to other mainstream sports. However, instead of attempting to have it reclassified as something it isn’t, I think it would be much more sensible to campaign for ‘Mind-Sports’ such as chess to be recognised alongside sports and arts as something beneficial to society which should qualify for similar funding. It seems to me that this is much more sensible and would maintain credibility in a way that the ‘Chess as a Sport’ argument does not."
IM Andrew Greet interview BCM
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Re: Recognition for Chess in Scotland - Andrew McHarg - 19-10-2012
Agree with Mr Ruxton and Mr Greet. As someone who runs and cycles on a daily basis, I've always held the view that Chess isn't a sport (at least not in the conventional sense). Trying to persuade the population that it is would be difficult at best, but more likely impossible. As IM Greet points out, Chess is worthy of funding in its own right, and for different reasons to most sports. The educational benefits of Chess are well documented, and we'd be better to play to that strength when acquiring funding.