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+--- Thread: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 (/thread-2143.html)
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - David Deary - 12-04-2022
(12-04-2022, 02:19 PM)Matthew Turner Wrote: I am more confused than ever. I have voted on motion 1 on the basis that it was to embed eligibility criteria into the constitution. Under this new situation, I may (and thinking about it probably would) have voted differently.
Also by the logic expressed previously on this thread, a vote for, or against, motion 1 would amount to exactly the same result.
That is the situation now but in actual fact it was always the case, the EWP motion 1 to amend the constitution was unconstitutional. Advice has been sought from those who wrote the constitution (on my part), I sought advice as did Dougie and the settled position is that the motion as constructed was unconstitutional. The gist of it is that an online poll does not have the standing of a General Meeting. There is a school of thought that had the notification of the vote gone out as an SGM then it would be acceptable, however, without actually having a meeting (virtual, hybrid, in person) I'm not convinced that would be constitutional either. Dougie may wish to add to this but I think it is a fair summary.
For my part, had I noticed this vote was proposed back on 18th March 2022, I would have intervened sooner and spared everyone what has become a bit of a non-event on Motion 1. An SGM could have been constituted and held already to vote on EWP Motion 1. However, I was not aware of this motion until the 7th April 2022 when I first posted here and even then I had to give it some thought. It wasn't until the 8th that I was convinced it was unconstitutional. I still haven't read the 17 pages of discussion before I first posted on this thread, as this was never an issue of the substance for me but one of process.
I plan on calling a Special General Meeting (SGM) and have informed the CS Executive Committee that I will be bringing forward a meeting on governance. The intention is for this meeting to be hybrid so it gives members the best of both worlds. If anyone has any motions that relate to governance they will have the opportunity to add them as I will post the draft call and motions on the forum before I make the formal submission for an SGM to the Executive.
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Andy Howie - 12-04-2022
(12-04-2022, 03:23 PM)WBuchanan Wrote: Is there any info on the method of the online voting itself. Is it an off the shelf package, or does Andy go out every day for more Creme Eggs. Who is overseeing it. I presume proxy votes don't exist. Questions, questions...
I can't stand Creme Eggs
It is very simple, I can pull down a spreadsheet from the site and use the membership and grading databases for cross checking membership using a bit of clever programming. I oversee it as Exec Director and I have another person who checks. Really quite simple and works really well.
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Matthew Turner - 12-04-2022
I decided that as these votes draw to a close, I would post some thoughts before the results were announced.
Firstly, in the overall scheme of things these votes are not very important, but I think the discussion and this forum more generally demonstrate some of the challenges facing Scottish Chess.
Since last time I visited Scotland, I have played many events in Ireland, some designed to get norms for aspiring Irish talents (even those born outside the Emerald Isle), some with lavish sponsorship, all organised with passion and enthusiasm. Only last week, I was talking to a senior Irish official about plans for a major project in 2024.
I have also been involved (albeit in a fairly small way) in innovative plans for junior development in England.
This isn’t because I am somehow less committed to Scottish Chess, but like everyone else I have limited time and I want my efforts to have an impact.
I work with Andy Howie on a fairly regular basis for the benefit of chess in general, but not particularly Scottish Chess. Back in 2011 there were a bunch of young Scottish chess players coming through organizing events and developing innovative ideas for chess development – where are they now.
We have to recognize that the situation that exists in Scottish Chess at the moment in not conducive to developing our game and those with drive and enthusiasm to fuel our game going forward are pushed to look elsewhere.
I abstained on motion 1. I want to back CS management and move on, but fundamentally I think it is wrong to put eligibility criteria in the constitution. We have tied ourself in knots here and this risks hobbling a future organization. Good luck dealing with our first trans competitors.
I voted yes on motion 2. This is primarily for three reasons
1. Irrespective of the merits of this case, it sets a tone that we are an inclusive, welcoming organization
2. It is not the case that I will deprive a hard working Scottish player of a place in the team. That is simply not the reality; In the modern world it is difficult to take two and a half weeks out of your life to play an Olympiad (I have already ruled myself out of competing this year). It is more a case of the International Director searching for players than players battling for places! Yes, it true that there would be an issue about what is best for Scottish Chess if there was a choice between myself and Freddie Gordon, but there would also be an issue if there was a choice between Andy Muir and Freddie Gordon. To my mind that is a selection issue not one of eligibility.
3. I have enjoyed competing at the (Open) Scottish Championships and I feel that has been beneficial for Scottish Chess. If one day the Championships became closed, it seems both wrong and detrimental to Scottish Chess that I be excluded.
If you have got this far, you have obviously committed a fair amount of time to reading this! So, I would request that you spend a little more time thinking about what you can do to help Scottish Chess to move forward. It is little use reflecting on where things have gone wrong; I hope we can now move to thinking about how thing can improve. The key is we need a lot of people doing a bit!
Can you make your chess club’s Christmas blitz a fundraiser to help a local junior get coaching before they compete in a major championship?
Can you organize a rota so that someone takes a couple of boards to a local park each Saturday?
Do you know someone in the council you can ask about buying chess boards and books for the local library?
Can you get the best player in the club to do a simultaneous display at the local shopping centre?
If you have other ideas, please post them on the forum and hopefully other will take up the challenge.
Best wishes.
Matt.
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - andybburnett - 13-04-2022
(12-04-2022, 10:22 PM)Matthew Turner Wrote: I decided that as these votes draw to a close, I would post some thoughts before the results were announced.
Firstly, in the overall scheme of things these votes are not very important, but I think the discussion and this forum more generally demonstrate some of the challenges facing Scottish Chess.
Since last time I visited Scotland, I have played many events in Ireland, some designed to get norms for aspiring Irish talents (even those born outside the Emerald Isle), some with lavish sponsorship, all organised with passion and enthusiasm. Only last week, I was talking to a senior Irish official about plans for a major project in 2024.
I have also been involved (albeit in a fairly small way) in innovative plans for junior development in England.
This isn’t because I am somehow less committed to Scottish Chess, but like everyone else I have limited time and I want my efforts to have an impact.
I work with Andy Howie on a fairly regular basis for the benefit of chess in general, but not particularly Scottish Chess. Back in 2011 there were a bunch of young Scottish chess players coming through organizing events and developing innovative ideas for chess development – where are they now.
We have to recognize that the situation that exists in Scottish Chess at the moment in not conducive to developing our game and those with drive and enthusiasm to fuel our game going forward are pushed to look elsewhere.
I abstained on motion 1. I want to back CS management and move on, but fundamentally I think it is wrong to put eligibility criteria in the constitution. We have tied ourself in knots here and this risks hobbling a future organization. Good luck dealing with our first trans competitors.
I voted yes on motion 2. This is primarily for three reasons
1. Irrespective of the merits of this case, it sets a tone that we are an inclusive, welcoming organization
2. It is not the case that I will deprive a hard working Scottish player of a place in the team. That is simply not the reality; In the modern world it is difficult to take two and a half weeks out of your life to play an Olympiad (I have already ruled myself out of competing this year). It is more a case of the International Director searching for players than players battling for places! Yes, it true that there would be an issue about what is best for Scottish Chess if there was a choice between myself and Freddie Gordon, but there would also be an issue if there was a choice between Andy Muir and Freddie Gordon. To my mind that is a selection issue not one of eligibility.
3. I have enjoyed competing at the (Open) Scottish Championships and I feel that has been beneficial for Scottish Chess. If one day the Championships became closed, it seems both wrong and detrimental to Scottish Chess that I be excluded.
If you have got this far, you have obviously committed a fair amount of time to reading this! So, I would request that you spend a little more time thinking about what you can do to help Scottish Chess to move forward. It is little use reflecting on where things have gone wrong; I hope we can now move to thinking about how thing can improve. The key is we need a lot of people doing a bit!
Can you make your chess club’s Christmas blitz a fundraiser to help a local junior get coaching before they compete in a major championship?
Can you organize a rota so that someone takes a couple of boards to a local park each Saturday?
Do you know someone in the council you can ask about buying chess boards and books for the local library?
Can you get the best player in the club to do a simultaneous display at the local shopping centre?
If you have other ideas, please post them on the forum and hopefully other will take up the challenge.
Best wishes.
Matt.
Hi Matt,
Without wishing to start yet another debate/argument on this issue, I think if you had posted this BEFORE the voting took place, you'd be looking for a new federation. I haven't read such an obnoxious post for a long time...and we have Andy Muir (and myself) on this forum, so that takes some doing.
It's late, and I'm pretty (very) angry at your post, so I'm going to leave it here for now...but I'd suggest you read through your post again though and see if you can work out for yourself just how patronising, self-serving, offensive, and/or just plain misinformed/incorrect most of it is.
Andy Burnett
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - WBuchanan - 13-04-2022
(12-04-2022, 09:29 PM)Andy Howie Wrote:Thanks Andy. Another person...okay. Are you talking about how you get the membership lists. Where does the votiing fit into that.(12-04-2022, 03:23 PM)WBuchanan Wrote: Is there any info on the method of the online voting itself. Is it an off the shelf package, or does Andy go out every day for more Creme Eggs
I can't stand Creme Eggs
It is very simple, I can pull down a spreadsheet from the site and use the membership and grading databases for cross checking membership using a bit of clever programming. I oversee it as Exec Director and I have another person who checks. Really quite simple and works really well.
Have you a running count throughout or do you just go in and get the data after the close of the vote
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Matthew Turner - 13-04-2022
Andy,
I am disappointed that you feel that way. I want Scottish Chess to move forward whatever the result of these votes. Over the last decade there have been a lot of talented Scottish juniors who should be pushing for a place in the Olympiad team, but the they aren't. Something is not working very well.
Scottish Chess has a number of very positive aspects - your Scottish Chess magazine is certainly one of them, but these haven't come together to produce an overall positive picture - far from it. We could say what is Chess Scotland going to do about this? but this is largely asking people who are overworked to do more. I do think the Federation needs a 5 year or even ten year plan as effectively they have in Ireland, but I am not sure that would gain the necessary traction at the moment.
What I think is required at the moment is a rebuilding from the base up. All the ideas that I listed above I have seen in action recently. There may well be instances of of similar events in Scotland too but I don't see them covered on the website or on this forum. It is bizarre that this is posted on the English Chess forum https://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12659 but not seen on the Scottish Chess forum and this is not an isolated case.
I am deeply disappointed with where Scottish Chess is at the moment and hope that things will improve. That is my honest opinion.
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Andy Howie - 13-04-2022
(13-04-2022, 12:19 AM)WBuchanan Wrote:(12-04-2022, 09:29 PM)Andy Howie Wrote:Thanks Andy. Another person...okay. Are you talking about how you get the membership lists. Where does the votiing fit into that.(12-04-2022, 03:23 PM)WBuchanan Wrote: Is there any info on the method of the online voting itself. Is it an off the shelf package, or does Andy go out every day for more Creme Eggs
I can't stand Creme Eggs
It is very simple, I can pull down a spreadsheet from the site and use the membership and grading databases for cross checking membership using a bit of clever programming. I oversee it as Exec Director and I have another person who checks. Really quite simple and works really well.
Have you a running count throughout or do you just go in and get the data after the close of the vote
Walter. Votes have to be checked to make sure the voter is eligible. I check it a couple of times a day primarily to make sure there are no issues, for example in the past people have submitted a blank vote. I can contact them and advise their vote has not been registered. I don't have the facility to remove votes, I can only delete them all.
If you are asking do I communicate how the vote is going, the answer is yes to one other person, the checker. Neither of us pass that number onto anyone else as I am sure anyone who has asked me how the vote is going will tell you. The only people who know anything until the vote is closed is myself and the checker.
One the vote has closed, as I did last night. We did the last verification and sent the results onto the management board. They currently have them along with some analysis of the votes. After they have digested them and any implications. I will post the results on the website. I am aiming to do this today but I aiming to do that this evening after work and I have sat down to relax for an hour.
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Andy Howie - 13-04-2022
This is probably be long post. I will try not to get ranty but please forgive me if I do.
I'm glad Andy B is angry at Matt's post. It shows he cares.
What Matt and Hamish have said is probably very close to how I feel and have bemoaned many times.
We want chess to grow and flourish in Scotland, but how can we possibly expect that to happen when it is the same small group of people doing everything?
When Jim was elected president, he recognised I was doing too much and we added a 4th member to the Exec to take some of the strain off of me. I am back doing more now than I was then.
In the last 2 year, during the pandemic, I have been CA/DCA for over 150 tournaments including the Candidates and World Championships. I went over 6 months without a day off just to keep Chess going. Yes I paid for it!!!
To me it was essential that we kept some continuity during the lockdowns giving people the chances to play. Along with David C and John Mc we run (and still run) monthly tournaments I also ran a series of prize tournaments. This had an unexpected side effect of bringing people into membership.
We had a long debate about grading the games. I was co fident with the methods we use for online fair play we could safely grade and after a discussion, we elected to use the allegro grade I am glad we did as some of the juniors returning to OTB are thrashing their adult opponents but at least they don't have a 2 year out of date grade.
So 2 years of running tournaments and running the fairnplay system for England, Scotland and Wales. I have been busy.
On top of that we have running the Federation. Even in covid times we still have decisions we have to make.
So that a sample of what I have been doing (there is a lot lore but this is not a job application and I don't want to bore you)
So what is holding Chess Scotland back? The answer is so simple it is laugable
Let's look at various areas pre covid.
Tournaments - Majority were run by SCT which incidentally is headed up by the IRO from England (who is a CS member and contributes greatly to Scottish Chess).
Arbiters - Basically we have 4/5 that are doing everything. Only 3 are hybrid trained meaning if we are in a hybrid we are limited in numbers. We desperately need more arbiters (my wife is training to become one to help me out. Be gentle to her in Ayr!). We are probably 1 or 2 going down sick / retiring from not being able to cover events.
Management Board - 3 posts still unfilled (Home Director, International Junior Director, Scottish Championship Director). No interest for either (If anyone wants International Junior Director, please contact me as Glorney is coming up and with potentially Candidates and Olympiad I am not available)
Council - has not met in years. Why? We do not have enough volunteers. The idea is Exec can be overturned by MB who can be overturned by council who can be overturned by AGM. Unless you have actual numbers, you can't have a council and despite calls for volunteers...
AGM - low numbers attend. From memory we had 14 at last. Given MB at full strength is 10 (not all were there) it does make it a little farcical.
I think we can all see where this is going. We will remain on this trajectory unless people start to step up Harry has made some amazing strides with the Juniors and I have been very impressed with Alan since he came on board. As for the Magazine under Andy, fantastic (and I am not saying that because I keep promising to write articles and end up too busy do it it).
If we want norm tournaments for our Juniors and Norm Seekers, we need people to organise and be the arbiters, we need sponsorship to pay for it.
Simple things can start this off and then they grow but the overriding issue, and Hamish touched on this is, we have the same group of overworked and very unappreciated people working hard to keep the wheels spinning. When was the last time someone turned to Jim or Dougie and thanked them? When I see some of the mails Karen gets from members where something has gone wrong, I really understand why people don't want to get involved.
So the crux of the matter is apathy. People are happy for things to happen as long as they don't have to do anything. We see this at the end of congresses when the arbiters are left to pack everything away.
5/10 year plan? I am all for that but without the buy in and volunteers coming forward, we are destined to just continue and stagnate and that would be a real shame.
If you have got this far, well done!!
So how do we fix this? I honestly don't know. We have tried and tried but people just don't want to volunteer but the facts of the matter are this is what is needed.
Ps if there are any spelling mistakes, I wrote this on the bus going into work on my phone
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - WBuchanan - 13-04-2022
Andy H
On the vote, if you have the results, am I the only one who thinks if they have been checked they should be released immediately?
Your analysis is your thing, the result is everybody's
Thanks for your long post Andy, worth a lot of discussion. It must be frustrating to, say, try to run a club on meagre support and have occasional people wander in and ask to see your plan for the year.
"So the crux of the matter is apathy. People are happy for things to happen as long as they don't have to do anything. We see this at the end of congresses when the arbiters are left to pack everything away."
The September Congress ran for many years in Glasgow. For most of the time it was held in Langside Halls, which seemed to have Tardis-like capacity, with small rooms everywhere which fitted the pattern in those days of many small tournaments and one big one. It managed to get hosted in Glasgow's City Chambers for a few years. As it was finishing one year, I was talking to one of the organisers who said they were now going to do the clearing up. I offered to help, after all with now five people it wouldn't take long! Or so I thought - three hours before we got out! Change of plan, we went somewhere for a meal, where I learned how much work had to be put in even for the congress to happen. These four people were the congress committee and met throughout the year.
Maybe some simple things could be considered that might help. A call for help, for some to come early, for volunteers beforehand. Some gentle firming up (or nailing down!).
Just a couple of thoughts!
RE: Eligibility Votes - March 2022 - Andy Howie - 13-04-2022
Walter,
I am at work, hence why I will be doing it tonight when I am back in front of my own computer. I don't work 24/7 for Chess Scotland (although it does feel like it sometimes!)