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+--- Thread: Olympiad Captain (/thread-251.html)
Olympiad Captain - David Deary - 02-05-2012
Oooh dear... I haven't posted in quite some time but felt I had to come out of hibernation for this one.
What a bizzare decision.
Phil is correct in that Andy has the right to direct as is his role. However, members have the right to question his decision making and if they choose to use the forum to do it - thats fine! I would suggest those unhappy express their displeasure at the AGM with their votes.
Personally, I can't believe this decision. As a CS member who contributes by paying an annual membership I am not happy to know my membership fee (whatever the minute percentage of it) is going to fund a non CS member, non playing GM to captain the teams. How much is this costing? I hope he is actually going to do something and its not a jolly... =)
Re: Olympiad Captain - Mike Scott - 02-05-2012
While my gut feeling is that one might prefer a home grown captain I think in many other activities it is well established practice to appoint the best applicant for the job - ref. football & cricket. Assuming the CS rules (if there any) permit such an appointment then it follows they must be funded in the same way as had anyone else.
Having a strong player able to support the players on the chess side of things as well as doing the admin seems a big bonus: seems to me that there is unlikely to have been many Scottish alternatives of similar strength - otherwise they would have been in the team?
Re: Olympiad Captain - Alex McFarlane - 02-05-2012
It has certainly been the case in the past that the Captain has multiple tasks to fulfil.
There is the obvious admin tasks of team selection (when to rest a player,when to try to maximise norm chances, submitting team lists by the appointed time, establishing opponents and their board order). These tasks are not insignificant.
In addition the Captain has also been involved in coaching/preparation - traditionally for the women's team. Logically the Captain should be a strong player to help with the preparation for both teams since Scotland cannot (a) afford to send a specialised coach or (b) have sufficient players of appropriate strength to carry out the position without weakening the team. Computers can only do so much.
I don't know which Scots applied for the position nor do I know if anything other than fares are being paid.
All I can say is that if Keith is doing this for expenses (or even slightly more) then Chess Scotland has got a very good deal. The fixed budget for this event, I assume, means that effectively the players are covering his costs since they would have benefitted from any savings achieved by not having a Captain. Accommodation will be paid for by the organisers.
In an ideal world we would have a strong Scottish team and enough reserve power to send a strong Scottish Captain. We are not in that position.
Mike seems to have said much of this whilst I was typing.
Re: Olympiad Captain - David G Congalton - 02-05-2012
Phil Thomas Wrote:Directors are put in place by the agm to direct - clue is in the name.
Fair enough but I wonder if this decision points Chess Scotland in the right direction.
Chess Scotland Adult Selection Policy
September 2007
"The international Director will seek to ensure that all selections are made in the best interests of Chess Scotland."
Phil Thomas Wrote:I am sure Andy Muir treated all applicants equally without taking account where they live - remember that he is a paid up member at Hamilton.
As it's a selection for the Scottish National team, I would have thought that the birthplace or current residency of the candidates might have been considered when selecting the Captain of Scotland.
Phil Thomas Wrote:It seems appropriate to me that the merits of unsuccessful candidates are not debated on the notice board. Again Andy Muir has got it right.
Where else should the discussion take place? Please don't say the AGM! ;|
Alex McFarlane Wrote:David G Congalton Wrote:And the team is?
Surely, unless you want to be accused of sexism your question should be ...
And the teams are?
Honesty being the best policy, I confess to being sexist. I forgot there was also an Open team and not just a women's team involved in the Olympiad. There's also a trophy and £50 for best woman player at Prestwick, this weekend. I told myself this was positive discrimination but I was kidding myself, it is just plain sexist.
"In an ideal world we would have a strong Scottish team and enough reserve power to send a strong Scottish Captain. We are not in that position."
So we're not good enough! Then we need to support the Scottish players, juniors etc.. to make them good enough. Sending a Scottish captain would benefit the Scottish teams of the future, as Scotland would have one more person with Olympiad experience.
Re: Olympiad Captain - David G Congalton - 02-05-2012
Mike Scott Wrote:While my gut feeling is that one might prefer a home grown captain I think in many other activities it is well established practice to appoint the best applicant for the job - ref. football & cricket.
Berti Vogts???
Re: Olympiad Captain - David Deary - 02-05-2012
David, as always your point is well researched and well made.
Alex McFarlane Wrote:I don't know which Scots applied for the position nor do I know if anything other than fares are being paid.
All I can say is that if Keith is doing this for expenses (or even slightly more) then Chess Scotland has got a very good deal. The fixed budget for this event, I assume, means that effectively the players are covering his costs since they would have benefitted from any savings achieved by not having a Captain. Accommodation will be paid for by the organisers.
Alex, irrespective of whether the event has a fixed budget it ultimately comes from my membership fee and the fees of all other CS members and the fees for grading our games etc. As such, it is open to challenge as is only correct.
Also, speaking as an Accountant - just because there is a budget doesn't mean you spend it all! Furthermore, I recall a debate on this forum over the international budget vs the international junior budget and if I remember correctly the international budget was increased.
If it was increased in part to allow the appointment of GM Arkell then I am disappointed because this was not an argument put forward at the time to increase the budget. I believe it could also be argued that I was misled on this issue as were many other members.
Some questions:
1) How much is it costing? I would like actual pounds and pence.
2) Who else applied for the role of Captain?
3) What is the Captain's job description? (Alex, I know you've tried to detail this but I'd like to see where it is formalized and a response from the International Director)
4) Have we had Captains in the past and who were they?
Re: Olympiad Captain - Alex McFarlane - 02-05-2012
David Deary Wrote:it is open to challenge as is only correctI never suggested otherwise. I simply gave a different view. Why should I not be allowed to challenge other views? Surely that too is only correct.
David Deary Wrote:just because there is a budget doesn't mean you spend it allWith the Olympiad team the budget NEVER covers the whole cost. Some players always have to subsidise themselves. In such circumstances it is very unlikely that the whole budget on this item would not be spent.
David Deary Wrote:If it was increased in part to allow the appointment of GM Arkell then I am disappointed because this was not an argument put forward at the time to increase the budgetIf this is the case I would totally agree. But I doubt if the timescale involved would mean this was the case, but I'm happy to be corrected.
David G Congalton Wrote:Sending a Scottish captain would benefit the Scottish teams of the future, as Scotland would have one more person with Olympiad experience.Reasonable experience of this sort can be gained at junior events where the Captain/Coach can be of more benefit to the players there than they would be to the Olympiad squad.
Please don't make me defend an Andy Muir decision further!
Re: Olympiad Captain - David Deary - 02-05-2012
Alex McFarlane Wrote:I never suggested otherwise. I simply gave a different view. Why should I not be allowed to challenge other views? Surely that too is only correct.
Alex, it was not my intention to say you couldn't challenge my view. I was simply stating that there is justification to challenge this decision and I think its right that it is discussed here.
I appreciate you answering the points but I think the International Director needs to give some justification for this and answer some of the questions raised.
Alex McFarlane Wrote:Please don't make me defend an Andy Muir decision further!
An unlikely ally indeed :U
Re: Olympiad Captain - robin moore - 02-05-2012
Andy,
Can you please tell ChessScotland members how much it is costing them in total (including any fees) for Keith to travel as Scottish captain to the Olympiad,
Robin.
Re: Olympiad Captain - Mike Scott - 02-05-2012
Robin,
Not sure what relevance the costs are. Are you saying it would be okay for a non-Scot to be captain but only if they got not no financial consideration?
It seems to me that debate should be about whether nationality should play a part in selecting a non-playing captain.