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Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - Andrew McHarg - 06-06-2013
Phil Thomas Wrote:Please moderate your language on the notice board.
Believe me, I do. ;P
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - WBuchanan - 06-06-2013
Disturbingly, Lilov’s presentations are being accepted by many as if they were impartial evidence. Obviously, they are not. Here is Lilov’s latest theory of how it was done, <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_contact_lens">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_contact_lens</a><!-- m -->.
Remember at Zadar it was supposed to be the tournament transmission, and that eighth game that had to be excluded when the transmission was off. Before changing the accusation once more, shouldn’t Lilov be telling us to put game 8 back into the calculations? He also said at first that Ivanov was in time trouble when blundering in game 2, later telling us he had an hour. Lilov has clearly made his mind up already. In the latest ‘analysis’ on Graham's link (thanks) he asks rhetorical questions like would you play this move with three minutes left? When I read this I thought Ivanov must have played out like, a neat endgame study while in time trouble - but it’s only one trick; also he doesn’t consider that black might have seen that trick earlier.
At the same time I’d accept that with these events the evidence against Ivanov is statistically stronger, in that the comparisons are at least motivated by prior suspicion - so are not being ‘used’ twice (once to justify the suspicion and again to prove it), a common evidential error.
The situation in Bulgaria is going from bad to worse. The Bulgarian authorities cited as their reason for banning Ivanov as his “appalling comments on chess players in general”. When the top players calling for a ban, it’s difficult to take this explanation seriously - considering Ivanov is widely condemned as a cheat with no proof, the comments he made don’t seem ‘appalling’, and certainly could have been attributed to the angry reaction of an innocent young man falsely accused. They also threw him out after the last round owing to three players having refused to play him - having previously added a clause concerning three defaults to this effect, seemingly at the behest of the top players.
Yes, let’s cheat him back! Al Capone nailed on his taxes, then the officials effectively delegate authority to the players… Authorities are supposed to be there to take charge of the situation, to be accountable.
I understand that feelings are running very high - why wouldn’t they - but that doesn’t compensate for a distinct lack of evidence. From the viewpoint of justice, these videos from Lilov and the even more biased running commentary from Chessbase, aren’t helping.
Yes the cheating possibility is bad for the game - but jumping on suspects in such a haphazard and backhanded manner is surely making the bad publicity worse.
To answer your question Andrew, I personally don’t mind jabbering away in a foreign language (I doubt Ivanov follows the Scottish Chess website, so little harm can be done) but if this had happened in Scotland I would probably not have expressed my opinion that he was cheating on the basis of the evidence I have seen so far. I would always support due process as long as it was fair.
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - Graham Kerr - 21-06-2013
From the Bulgarian Chess Federation's homepage today (thanks to Google translator):-
" BF Chess considers the case closed Borislav Ivanov
Chess player does not appear in the headquarters of the Federation of proving his innocence
Bulgarian Chess Federation deems the case with Borislav Ivanov closed after chess player does not appear in the headquarters of the Federation to establish his innocence, where yesterday, 19/06/2013, Wednesday, we had to be subjected to "special tests to technical resources (lie detector) to prove objectively with scientific means that the chess player does not use any unfair means in the game. "
For the tests at headquarters was attended by the president of BF Chess Silvio Danailov, the federation, officials of the Ministry of Youth and Sports, the club Borislav Ivanov Chess "Victory" Blagoevgrad, chess figures and journalists.
In a special declaration of 22 May 2013 addressed to the President of the Board of BF Chess, Borislav Ivanov said expressly consent to be subjected to these tests. Borislav Ivanov informed promptly, personally and through Chess "Victory" Blagoevgrad, where filing chess player, the date and venue of the tests.
Failure to Borislav Ivanov This is a violation of the disciplinary code.Recall that the Bulgarian Chess Federation is an associate member of the International Olympic Committee, according to which rules, if a competitor does not appear to carry a drug or other controls by the competent authorities lost racing rights for at least 2 years without parole.
This BF Chess considered case by Borislav Ivanov is concluded and will give no further comment on the case.
Be advised also that:
Administrative Court - Sofia disregard any Borislav Ivanov appeal against the decision of the Bulgarian Chess Federation to be imposed penalty "temporary suspension from participation in competitions under the auspices of the BCF for a period of 4 months continuous media and other events that are incompatible with sporting ethics, undermine the prestige of the BCF and the chess figures as a whole "and did not grant the request made by him to suspend the preliminary execution of the decision of the Board of BCF.
"
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - WBuchanan - 23-06-2013
Thanks. I think Ivanov got that one right – had he passed the ‘objective scientific test’ I doubt his titled accusers would have accepted it. I think he would have been better to turn up and explain though. It's disappointing that the chess authorities should resort to such dubious measures. I vaguely recall black and white B movies in which dramatic court room finales with sweating psychopaths and spikey graphs sold the idea of lie detection on to a naive public. Now we know about things like White Coat Syndrome that lead to false positives (and false negatives), and how the test might be 'cheated', the idea is best left to the world of drama. Cheers
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - amuir - 23-06-2013
Ivanov is innocent until proven guilty.
How could he have cheated ? A strip-search showed no signs of an electrical device on him.
Until he is caught cheating he should be allowed to play.
Maybe he has studied some houdini games and this has improved his level of play.
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - andyburnett - 23-06-2013
amuir Wrote:Ivanov is innocent until proven guilty.
How could he have cheated ? A strip-search showed no signs of an electrical device on him.
Until he is caught cheating he should be allowed to play.
Maybe he has studied some houdini games and this has improved his level of play.
True - but this isn't a criminal matter (though some sort of fraud case could perhaps be made?!)
There are a few ways he could have cheated, and him removing his shirt (not a strip-search at all) doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Until he answers certain questions openly then I think he should be banned - the top players in the world use Houdini, etc. every day of their lives and do not match up anywhere near Ivanov's.
To ask for some sort of proof he's cheating is fine (not easy to show, but possible) but to actually believe he's not cheating is incredibly naïve!
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - amuir - 23-06-2013
what is the method of cheating though ? without a method you can't convict
mobile phone ? how ?
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - andyburnett - 23-06-2013
amuir Wrote:what is the method of cheating though ? without a method you can't convict
mobile phone ? how ?
Therein lies the problem. I think I could work it out given 10 minutes alone with Ivanov in a room; Midnight Express anyone? =o
Seriously though, whatever method he is using (and I am convinced he is using some method) it is much more subtle and technically advanced than what we are used to seeing in chess.
The recent articles which mention that he 'doesn't move at all at the board or from the board during games' provides a big hint for where we should be looking. Probably some visual technology coupled with sensors/transmitters of some kind?! The technology exists of course, it's the practicalities of using them during a chess game which would have to be overcome.
I'm pretty sure a good magician, with a decent background in chess and a knowledge of 'spy' technology could work it out pretty quickly. Anyone know of such a person? :\
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - andyburnett - 23-06-2013
If it was a criminal case we (the chess-police!) would not have to rely on circumstantial evidence such as the 'engine match-up rate' alone.
Access to computer records, e-mails/texts/etc. and financial records would provide leads. Interviewing Ivanov, his friends/family/associates might result from this. If evidence existed it would be found pretty quickly I would imagine.
Instead of banning him, it would be useful for an organiser to insist that he analyse his games afterwards a la the London Classic? In real-time in front of an audience! Then we'd see how strong a player he really is!
Re: Bulgaria - Summer of Chess - Andrew McHarg - 23-06-2013
andyburnett Wrote:I'm pretty sure a good magician, with a decent background in chess and a knowledge of 'spy' technology could work it out pretty quickly. Anyone know of such a person? :\
Houdini? lol :U