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+--- Thread: Richardson/Spens - what next? (/thread-1177.html)
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - George Neave - 13-06-2015
Is it worth setting up a poll here on some of main ideas? From memory I think the 3 main choices are:
1) No change i.e.knock out.
2) Craig's Super-final idea
3) Groups instead of knock out.
Maybe we can offer these 3 then drill into specifics from there?
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - amuir - 13-06-2015
Is it worth setting up a poll here on some of main ideas? From memory I think the 3 main choices are:
1) No change i.e.knock out.
2) Craig's Super-final idea
3) Groups instead of knock out.
I vote for status quo = knock out
Any team that wants a 2nd match finds an opponent to play on semi-finals day.
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Jonathan Livingstone - 13-06-2015
Those options don't cover everything, can we throw in an option 4.
4. Scrap Spens and join it with the Rich. Have a knockout Rich with pre-qualifiers or seeding. With a central venue as a minimum for Semi Final and Final stage. No plate competitions.
I vote for option 4, if it was on the table.
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Alan Tate - 13-06-2015
In general a knockout should be preferred, but the current system doesn't have enough games.
Assuming the goal is to try something new without losing players - Avoid double round days and also 3 day events. Part of the reason the Richardson consistently turns out Scotland's best is because it is on one day and players do no not have to commit the whole weekend (or longer).
How about home and away legs over say, a couple of weeks?
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - George Neave - 14-06-2015
Jonathan Livingstone Wrote:Those options don't cover everything, can we throw in an option 4.
4. Scrap Spens and join it with the Rich. Have a knockout Rich with pre-qualifiers or seeding. With a central venue as a minimum for Semi Final and Final stage. No plate competitions.
I vote for option 4, if it was on the table.
This is a drill down on 1 i.e. continue with knock out format. This should be covered in different poll that comes later.
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Craig Pritchett - 14-06-2015
Trouble with these 'polls' is that they oversimplify too much / leave too much key detail 'out'. What's billed as 'Craig's' (ugh!) Super final option is much more than that. To repeat: it is an attempt to revamp NOT just the Richardson BUT also the Spens.
The new 'Richardson' final is intended to be a four team event (at the end of the season) for a 'Scottish Super-Cup'. The new 'Spens' KO event (including its KO final) is for the 'Scottish Cup'. Remember, too, that the 'new' Spens is open to ALL. This format allows clubs to compete in both events in any given season and try to win both the Scottish Cup AND the Scottish Super Cup. I still think that sounds attractive to clubs and players of all strengths.
The main practical objection to the final weekend idea is probably Keith Rose's idea of 'cost' (to CS), certainly without sponsorship. There is a possible way round this (reducing costs and meeting some other objections):
- The final weekend remains at four teams - the previous year's Super Cup winner and runner-up plus the two Scottish Cup finalists in the current year.
- The event takes place only on two days AND remains on a KO basis (i.e. it is not a league of any sort)
- On the Saturday, last year's Super Cup winner plays current year Scottish Cup runner-up / Super Cup runner-up plays current year Scottish Cup winner
- On the Sunday - the Super Cup final takes place between the two Saturday winners
Such a change avoids the need for a three day Super Cup weekend and keeps the old KO principle in place for both Super and Scottish Cups. I think I prefer this four team, two day, KO modification.
There was another objection to the 'impracticality' of a May Super Cup final. It strikes me that simply by shifting the start of the annual Super Cup / Scottish Cup events back by a month or so, we could conclude the Scottish Cup in late March and the Super Cup in Late-April.
Otherwise, and perhaps this isn't so bad, I sense we will inevitably head towards regional groupings: restricted to 8 East and West teams for the otherwise unchanged Richardson Cup; Spens open to all and essentially unchanged. This is as outlined by Keith Rose in his 14 April post. Assuming I've got this right, I am sure that that will work but it doesn't seem a very big change and may be insufficiently radical to spark any increased participation in current Richardson, Spens and Rosebowl numbers (although it is completely CS cost neutral).
Not easy!?
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Craig Pritchett - 15-06-2015
Just thought of another possible twist (for the Super Cup / Scottish Cup option) that might reduce costs even further and be even easier to administer by CS / travel to for involved clubs:
- Keep Spens, i.e new Scottish Cup (plus Rosebowl) final weekend at end-April (as currently) BUT stage on the Saturday.
- On the Sunday of the same April weekend, stage the first KO matches of the Scottish Super Cup (last year's Super Cup winner v current year's Scottish Cup runner-up / last year's Super Cup runner up v current year's Scottish Cup winner ... as in previous post)
- Two winners of those first (Sunday) Super Cup matches to contest that year's Super Cup final on one Sunday or Saturday in May (surely possible to schedule?!) ... say, at Edinburgh Chess Club ... lower cost venue and one that Scottish chess players really ought to make as much use of as possible (in my view) as it's one of the few real jewels in the national chess crown.
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Iain Swan - 15-06-2015
My preference would be to retain the knockout format for teams of 8 players. However, if more games would attract entries, then leagues of four with the top two going forward to a knockout stage seems a reasonable compromise. If we could get 16 teams to enter that would mean three games in the league format followed by three knockout rounds.
The problem with more weekend matches, whether played at a central venue or not, is cost. We pay around £90 to hire our normal Richardson Cup venue for a match. More games means more expense.
I am not keen on playing games on consecutive days, and don't know anyone who would want to play two games with the Richardson time control on the same day.
Other changes that have been suggested such as submitting team pools, publishing teams the night before the match and abolishing the 30 mile rule, all seem reasonable.
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - George Neave - 15-06-2015
Iain Swan Wrote:My preference would be to retain the knockout format for teams of 8 players. However, if more games would attract entries, then leagues of four with the top two going forward to a knockout stage seems a reasonable compromise. If we could get 16 teams to enter that would mean three games in the league format followed by three knockout rounds.
The problem with more weekend matches, whether played at a central venue or not, is cost. We pay around £90 to hire our normal Richardson Cup venue for a match. More games means more expense.
I am not keen on playing games on consecutive days, and don't know anyone who would want to play two games with the Richardson time control on the same day.
Other changes that have been suggested such as submitting team pools, publishing teams the night before the match and abolishing the 30 mile rule, all seem reasonable.
I agree on every point! :-bd
Re: Richardson/Spens - what next? - Gary McPheator - 16-06-2015
I propose the following format:
All teams either play in West Qualifying Section or East Qualifying Section
Teams will be 6 players ( same as European Club Cup )
Time control of 90 minutes for 40 moves plus 30 minutes for the rest of the game with 30 second increments per move from move 1 ( same as European Club Cup )
Each Qualifying Section will be played as a 5 round Swiss (similar to European Club Cup ) with each team having at least 2 home ties
Top 3 from West and East qualify for Richardson
Next 3 from West and East qualify for Spens
If enough entrants next 3 from West and East qualify for Rosebowl
Knock-out Stages
Quarter-finals 2nd in West v 3rd in East, 2nd in East v 3rd in West
Semi-finals 1st in West v 2nd in East/3rd in West, 1st in East v 2nd in West/3rd in East
Final to be competed for by winners of both semi-finals at central/neutral venue
I would like to see the finals of the Cups take place during one of our weekend congresses. The finals could take place on Friday morning/afternoon giving the players the chance to play in the congress and congress players the chance to watch our top Cup competitions. I think Ayr would be a good fit for this, held on a Bank Holiday weekend, plenty of live boards, commentary team ( although Andrew and Ali may be playing! ) and a good accessible venue.
I would also like for local associations/leagues to be allowed to enter one regional team into the competition, with players having to have played in their league in the current or previous season to be eligible.
This format will give our European representatives practise of some of the conditions they will face in the European Club Cup, make it easier for clubs to muster a team and give teams at least 5 games with realistic chances of winning a Cup.