+- Forums (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Members Only (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum/forum-16.html)
+--- Forum: General Chess Chat (https://www.chessscotland.com/forum/forum-3.html)
+--- Thread: Olympiad Captain (/thread-251.html)
Re: Olympiad Captain - Phil Thomas - 02-05-2012
amuir Wrote:No - I shall not disclose the fees. The total cost for the Olympiad might be about £6000 but it depends on travel costs. If I disclosed fees then some players might complain and would lead to disharmony. Not worth the risk.
E.g if I said Colin McNab gets x and Rowson would have got y then Alan Tate might want z and we would spend over budget to get the players and end up bankrupt like Rangers football club and I am not going down that route.
All members need to know is total cost and if it is in the budget.
As far as I know there is no requirement for me to give anything other than total cost for Olympiad and no requirement for the captain to be Scottish or a CS member so I am happy with what I have done.
Andy,
you are completely and utterly right to take this stance.
In my time as IJD coaching fees were revealed to the treasurer only.
Had I seen a reason to publicise fees on the notice board then I would have done so myself in person.
The last time I looked the IJD was Paul MacDonald.
And congratulations for recruiting a coach of the standard of GM Keith Arkell for the Olympiad teams. If the players wanted him then that is good enough for me.
Re: Olympiad Captain - amuir - 03-05-2012
The appearance fees are very low - there are no budget busters. I just don't want to be specific.
Answers to questions:
1) How much is it costing? I would like actual pounds and pence.
about £6000 - will not know till after tournament.
2) Who else applied for the role of Captain?
About 4 or 5 people - I will not give names
3) What is the Captain's job description?
There is none - as Alex described previously - to look after the teams' needs
4) Have we had Captains in the past and who were they?
Too many to mention.
5) Has the increase in the International budget been used in part or wholly to fund Arkell's position? This is quite important as there are some serious governance issues surrounding this and how this increase in budget was communicated to CS members and to Council prior to its approval.
No - Keith Arkell applied for the role and was chosen at the last minute, his costs are very cheap and are a bargain for CS.
Re: Olympiad Captain - Graeme Kafka - 03-05-2012
Excellent news that we have a strong and experienced player as captain in Grandmaster Arkell. Our elite now have every chance of performing to the very best of their abilities in the most important team tournament in Chess. Come on Scotland!
Re: Olympiad Captain - Mike Scott - 03-05-2012
Robin
Quote:the costs involved in taking a non-playing captain/ head of delegation who is not recognised as ScottishSorry Robin but am I being thick but I do not think the nationality of the captain has any relevance to costs, or do the hotels and airlines offer a discount based on nationality??
I guess the remuneration or costs demanded by different people may vary and that in itself might be debatable i.e. should the director pay more for a GM capt. rather than an IM one?
Personally I think you also need to consider the potential improvement in team performance in having the best available (I am assuming that Kieth makes a good captain) person in this position - one that can command the players respect as a player. This means we get better return on our investment.
ps
I have resisted saying this but I agree with Phil. Damn!
Re: Olympiad Captain - David Deary - 03-05-2012
Andy, thank you for your reply and answering my questions as much as you felt appropriate.
I am going to email Mac to try and get a breakdown of costs as I feel it is important that it is transparent. As what you regard as value for money might not match what I consider value for money.
If I cannot get any further detail maybe I can just compare this budget to the last one for the Olympiad. Would it be wrong to assume any increase is GM Arkell's costs? =)
Mike Scott Wrote:Personally I think you also need to consider the potential improvement in team performance in having the best available (I am assuming that Kieth makes a good captain) person in this position - one that can command the players respect as a player. This means we get better return on our investment.
Can we set the KPIs now so that we can measure this potential improvement and whether this has been successful or not? I like to see a nice return on investment but I suspect this would be a case of "that wasn't the Captain's influence it was the players" etc. So returns on investment and KPIs would be extremely difficult to measure.
Finally, its dissapointing that the argument is that we have no-one 'home grown' with the neccessary experience to be Captain. How is someone supposed to gain experience for such a role without actually doing it? :\
Re: Olympiad Captain - Alex McFarlane - 03-05-2012
David,
Comparing the budget for the previous event with this one would not produce the information you are looking for. Indeed, it might even suggest the Keith was paying to be captain if the budget for this year is less.
For most Olympiads it is not a case of how much the players get, more a case of how little out of pocket they hope to be. Some have given up their annual leave to participate. Can you cost that in terms of family inconvenience?
A player living in London will almost certainly have lower travel costs than one living in Aberdeen. It is, I think, usual for the players to arrange their own transport and submit the invoice. This would be shown on the amount 'paid' to them if the figures were released.
If we were genuinely paying people to play then I would not be unhappy with wage bands being given with the number of 'employees' in each band given (as with many businesses/sports). We are not in that position. I imagine that all participants are actually competing at a financial loss to themselves.
The accounts for the Scottish will only show an aggregate amount for conditions. This has happened on the rare occasions when CS paid the conditions.
Re: Olympiad Captain - David G Congalton - 03-05-2012
I've decided to call Keith the Scotland Olympiad squad coach, in my own wee small mind. This makes it much easier for me to accept. I don't know why but it just does.
Maybe I just didn't understand the role before the discussion.
I'm also more than happy to trust the judgement of Mac and the experience of Alex, Andy and others when it comes to the finance side of things and don't see the requirement to have a complete breakdown of numbers. The information Andy has supplied is more than enough.
Apologies to Andy for not seeing what a good decision this was from the start but with the extra information I have been won over.
Re: Olympiad Captain - Mike Scott - 03-05-2012
David D.
Quote:Finally, its dissapointing that the argument is that we have no-one 'home grown' with the necessary experience to be Captain. How is someone supposed to gain experience for such a role without actually doing it? :\
Like any other job! You establish a reputation by doing something similar at other events. I mean you wouldn't expect Alex to be an arbitor at the Olympiads unless he already had the qualifications.
Re: Olympiad Captain - David Deary - 03-05-2012
Mike Scott Wrote:Like any other job! You establish a reputation by doing something similar at other events. I mean you wouldn't expect Alex to be an arbitor at the Olympiads unless he already had the qualifications.
Mike, in that case do we have a strategy or plan for getting some 'home grown' players experience of being Captain or Coach so they can take up the role as Captain of the Olympiad in the future? That's probably another question for Andy! (sorry Andy!
)Alex McFarlane Wrote:David,
Comparing the budget for the previous event with this one would not produce the information you are looking for. Indeed, it might even suggest the Keith was paying to be captain if the budget for this year is less.
That thought had crossed my mind... I might be digging a hole for myself on that one. =o
Having given this more thought I can appreciate the need for the figures not to be disclossed in the public domain. As one example - If one player saw what another was being compensated they could potentially then want the same rate and it could conceivably cost CS more.
However, transparency on these matters is paramount although all the players and the coach aren't "making money out of it" (as it were) the limited funds CS has need to be targeted and prioritised. With no disclosure its difficult for a member to judge for themselves if the funds are going in the correct places.
Re: Olympiad Captain - Andrew McHarg - 03-05-2012
I think the most important questions have already been answered:
1) Was this decision against the rules (CS constitution etc) - No.
2) Has this decision put the Olympiad over budget - No.
3) Will this decision have an adverse effect on our team performance - likely the opposite.
It's also probably true that releaseing the exact figures may cause issues. Most people don't know how much their colleagues are being paid for a good reason, and as Alex points out - most of the players are likely to be worse off financially anyway. I'm not a supporter of appearance fees, but I do support players getting their expenses paid for them where possible.
So considering all of the above I will wish the team all the best for the Olympiad. =)