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+--- Thread: Appearance fees for our best players (/thread-155.html)
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Mike Scott - 21-12-2011
Quote:Nothing at home can prepare you for these events, like these events can!
I have already said that there should be other events that could be used as alternatives, that would be more appropriate level, and which would almost certainly be cheaper to attend - allowing players to play in them more frequently. For example there are regular events held in Budapest (First Saturday). Indeed there has been some move already in this direction with Murak (?) and the sending of the U16 team to the Olympiad.
The idea that a player gains a lot when being out gunned round after round is quite simply daft. I know the effect it had on Jonny's confidence and saw it in other players when they just couldn't score points until they had floated down towards the bottom of the draw. Sorry to harp on but in the swimming world swimmers get selected for different events so that they get experience of being amongst the best, mid-table and near the bottom of the table.
Quote:that these juniors are our elite in their age categories
Sure some players are not just the elite in their age group they are also really good players. But my point is that we are very much a small pond and not all players that are No.1 in their age group are in fact good enough to get much out of attending these events: they need different training and different experiences to develop. If they get that they may well then develop into players that do indeed demand a place at the next Worlds or Euros.
There is another aspect to this in that some age groups are stronger than others - it always seems to happen this way - and if you insist on taking at least one player from every group you either end up with strong players never getting a chance to play or you end up with a big squad that is hard to co-ordinate and really needs more trainers than CS can normally afford to send.
Quote:The next Magnus Carlsen might be in Scotland somewhere and if we cannot open opportunities to them at big events then we might never discover what they are capable of
You serious?! If we need to send players to these events to try and find out which are any good it does not say much for our development programs!
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - robin moore - 21-12-2011
Alex's point about coaching is fair. Coaching is a top priority. Paul and I are in the process of setting up a national online coaching network for our juniors. This is not an overnight fix, but a long term approach which we feel is essential in improving and organising our existing and future internationals in a much more professional way. We are using our best young players as online coaches that have came right through the junior scene from an early age. One thing that I accept may be controversial is that we are asking this core team to coach juniors as young as 7. Some of you may think this might be a bit potty, but as I have said previously, we are taking a long term approach, putting the strongest coaches we have in as quickly as possible to support our most promising juniors even at a very young age. I was taken aback by the number of boys and girls playing at U8 and U10 level at the Euroyouths. I feel we need to focus on this strongly. Other countries are playing from about age 6 up, with professional support. We,on the other the hand are only really joining in properly at U12 level. If we wish to make progress as a chess playing nation we are going to have to start at the very bottom agegroups and support them in every way we can right through to late teenage years.
Robin.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Mike Scott - 21-12-2011
Quote:Mike,Sorry Angus - missed this comment. I didn't mean to suggest that I only thought 5 should go: all I was saying was acknowledging that 10 would cost the same as 5.
I'm looking at the under 18 open age bracket next year and there are 6 that I would select now! (I'm not a selector though) for those tournaments. Say 3 in Euroyouth and 3 in World Youth. There are a couple of younger age groups where it's similar. Why would you try and restrict this to 5 players for the whole squad?
Robin,
In addition to the benefits this training does to their skills, it will instill in the players the habit of work - the idea that its normal to work at chess.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Alastair White - 21-12-2011
All of this discussion is interesting but I would like to bring it back to where it all started.
Scotland is currently in the fortunate position that we have a good number of reasonably ‘active’ Senior (over-60s) chess players, including two IMs, two FMs, and other former champions and strong players. Most of them are pensioners not in full-time employment and they currently have to personally bear the full cost of appearing in such events. Some of these have indicated to the International Director that the potential cost is a major consideration in deciding whether to represent Scotland in international Senior tournaments. Those who do so mainly do because they are happy to pay for the honour of representing Scotland in international competition. To my knowledge no Senior team has ever received a subsidy from Chess Scotland, so any comments about ‘existing level of subsidy’ or ‘over-subsidising’ are out of place in this context.
In recent years our results have been gradually improving due to more strong players reaching the age of qualification. In last year’s Euro Seniors our 11th place included close matches against the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 7th seeds; we came near to causing a major upset all of these matches. Craig Pritchett’s contribution was outstanding and most others consistently play above their rating in such tournaments. In recent years we have consistently out-performed the English and Welsh teams—at how many sports can we say that? (perhaps a useful negotiating point in any future discussions with the Scottish Executive…).
Naturally Andy (Muir) would be keen to see the ‘dream team’ of all the top Seniors available playing at once. So would I, despite the fact that it would see me relegated to the second string. I believe that such a team, if it could be deployed within the next few years, would have a realistic chance of bringing home a top six finish or even a medal. Other teams have more titled players, but some of these are past their best and none of them are unbeatable (including Korchnoi, who regularly plays in the competition…).
Unfortunately there is very little chance of any funding being available to enable this to happen, so it is all largely academic. I consider myself to be very fortunate in these difficult times to be able to play anyway, while recognising that there are others who unable to commit for family, financial or other reasons. It is frustrating at all levels that we cannot field our strongest team; but perhaps that is the reality of chess nowadays.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Clement Sreeves - 21-12-2011
I agree with Mike's idea of a rating floor for the Euro/World Youth events. These events really are incredibly tough! As well as the factors that Mike mentioned, one huge downside of sending kids that aren't ready to these, that is often overlooked, is that they end up with very low FIDE ratings, which then take several years to catch up. 2 recent examples of this are Andrew McClement and Ian McDonald, who both had to work up from around 1500. And getting in FIDE rated games is not cheap as I'm sure many parents will know. Perhaps something along the lines of U18:2100 U16:2000 U14:1800 U12:1600 U10:1200, and something like 300 points lower for girls. Obviously these can be refined, but I think the bar should be set pretty high. This would also make selections very transparent, and clear to everyone what they need to achieve.
Other tournaments can be found that would be better for those that are below the rating floor. Returning to Calum's idea at the start of the thread, sending squads to tournaments like the British, which has a championship, major open, and age group championships, or big opens in France/Italy/Spain which can be combined with holidays, would be good by providing tough games, and norm hunters would get opportunities, as well as coaching/preparing/analysing games with the juniors.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Douglas Bryson - 21-12-2011
The suggestion of setting a minimum grading requirement is sensible for these high level international junior events. Losing is an occupational hazard but a succession of losses will be massively dispiriting to all but the most mentally robust player.
Clement's suggested grades fit well with the all time junior charts <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://chessscotland.com/grading/alltimejuniors.htm">http://chessscotland.com/grading/alltimejuniors.htm</a><!-- m -->
I think every Scot who has ever achieved an IM norm appears somewhere on this page so it's a pretty good indicator of potential. If you are not at these levels yet then adult weekend congresses can be worked through till you improve.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Mike Scott - 21-12-2011
DB
What is the basis for putting names on the list? Always wondered why there are so many more in the older age groups.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Angus McDonald - 21-12-2011
Mike, Clement and Dougie!!
You Can not be serious!!
Even if one accepts the need for barriers! then the barriers you are suggesting are way too severe.
I don't accept the need for barriers btw.
You'd seriously cheese off a significant number of juniors who arn't at these levels yet and deny scores of children the opportunity to represent their country even though they are within the top three in their age group in the country. They achieved their positions by merit!
Some appear to wish to deny others opportunities they enjoyed themselves.
Also by and large parents are funding their children to go to Euro Youth and World Youth.
As for Ian's 'low' fide rating. He's only 16 next month. He can live with it. Even if he stopped playing tomorrow I'd be content with what he's done with chess. With a World Youth or Euro Youth to look forward to next year he probably will continue. If he does it will be because of these tournaments where you can test yourself against the best in your age in Europe or the World. Clement is right in that they are tough tournaments. If we continue we will probably also play 'The Scottish' I'd back any of the 9 who played at The World's to be significantly stronger at their next Euroyouth or World Youth.
Would you suggest grading limits for the adult teams? because their tournaments are also tough!!
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Douglas Bryson - 21-12-2011
The all time junior list was inherited from previous graders and updated over the years.
The J19s J20s was last chance to get a mention so that's why overloaded. The actual physical space of the g-book also determined who was listed - not an issue now on web.
Since all done manually there is scope for error. The early years have some omissions and need checked. There's a list from December 1968 with some familiar star juniors at the top of the heap.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://chessscotland.com/grading/glist_dec1968.jpg">http://chessscotland.com/grading/glist_dec1968.jpg</a><!-- m --> - it's as if John Greig was still in the Rangers first team.
Re: Appearance fees for our best players - Clement Sreeves - 22-12-2011
If you think these grading limits are severe, you should feel sorry for the Dutch- I was talking to Wouter Spoelman (rated 2580 at the time) at the World U20 last year and he told me that in general you had to be 2600 to take part- they made an exception for him!
You say we should reward the top 3 of each age-group - this doesn't make sense because obviously some age-groups have a number of strong players, while others have few. Even if the limits are lower than what I suggested, I still feel this is the right approach.