28-01-2017, 11:45 AM
Not to sure I agree with Phil's interpretation. I'm not sure the Laws of Chess agree either.
6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
By that Law the flag is not down until the opponent has pointed it out. If this has not happened then the game is ended by the draw claim and realisation afterwards that the flag is down has occurred too late. The draw claim should be judged on the merits of the claim and not on the clock times.
This is quite different from a congress situation where the draw claim does not end the game so a claim of a win on time would be valid there.
In answer to the original questions. In both cases the flag being down does not affect matters as the game is ended before the flag is deemed to have fallen. In the second case the team-mates of the player claiming the draw are permitted to take him outside and inflict suitable punishment, especially if the outcome of the match was adversely affected by his lack of observation.
6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
By that Law the flag is not down until the opponent has pointed it out. If this has not happened then the game is ended by the draw claim and realisation afterwards that the flag is down has occurred too late. The draw claim should be judged on the merits of the claim and not on the clock times.
This is quite different from a congress situation where the draw claim does not end the game so a claim of a win on time would be valid there.
In answer to the original questions. In both cases the flag being down does not affect matters as the game is ended before the flag is deemed to have fallen. In the second case the team-mates of the player claiming the draw are permitted to take him outside and inflict suitable punishment, especially if the outcome of the match was adversely affected by his lack of observation.