MINDSET

[Angus McDonald]

Craig,

I think the categories, criteria, labels whichever one wishes to call them are quite spurious. I am impressed that this World Renowned Educational Psychologist has been able to hoodwink so many so easily. I'd be curious to know which Sport she has become eminently successful at?
She is ofcourse stating the bleedingly obvious re the 'Growth' Model so yes Craig you are right in saying that I agree with Mike that talent and hard work is the key to success. It's the totally unhelpful and in my opinion pretty 'bogus' other label where I think the effort to attain self importance and project an all knowing wisdom to others is deluding and potentially harmful.
It appears to me that Coaches who accept that this 'fixed mindset' exists will start looking for it in talented children they are meant to be helping to progress. Their job instead of labelling a child as this is to get them on the track of 'growth' There could be many reasons that a child isn't progressing as quickly as their talent and previous peformances suggest they should. i.e. a plateau of learning, a growth spurt and child adapting to that, outside influence, etc,etc. It doesn't mean the child is in love with their talent and become arrogant. What all knowing person decides these things. What are the criteria for deciding that the child is a wrongun and has the demon 'fixed mindset' It truly is balderdash. It's the job of the coach to spot issues and respond positively not negatively and if the child eventually isn't able to develop their talent then just perhaps that sport isn't for them.
Clearly in Swimming there is an issue with the age banding and it appears that those born earlier within the agebands are favoured because they have developed a little bit more physically. This is going to be very difficult to do anything about because all sports have age banding and usually this is in unity with the World Body for that Sport. Making positive discrimination for the younger children to stop them from getting disheartened is possibly a fair idea but making it the subjective decision for selectors sounds dubious for me. The danger is that you could lose a 10 year old born in December because they are always losing to an 11 year old born in January. The 10 year old may have more talent but hasn't developed as much as the 11 year old. I know you could always get rid of the kid who's 11 and winning the races because he was born in January and has obviously got a fixed mindset. There, sorted!

Finally, for Scottish Chess. We are a small band. We need all the talents on board. People like yourself Craig who are still putting in the performances aged, cough, clearing throat. Impressed that you are still writing the books also. Would be great if you were involved with the stonger juniors!? or perhaps you already are in
the Edinburgh area?

rgds,
Angus

[Mike Scott]

I would highlight that the growth/fixed mindset is not just about hard work. The hard work in the right thing follows from having a growth mindset. It is also about why some people might be resistant to new ideas or be willing to work hard at somethings but not at others. Someone who has a fixed mindset may well work hard is some areas but not in all.

Unless the coach has an understanding of a possible reason why a player will work at for example his openings but not his end games; or will do lots of puzzles but not learn opening theories then how can he help his charge?

There is often a feeling that the high achiever who does not work hard is simply lazy: this may be the case but it may well be for other reasons, including those associated with a fixed mindset.

The whole emphasis of the original talk was to help parents/coaches to help the children. Indeed the point was made that it applied to everyone involved - the parents, the coaches and so on. It is not about labeling the children, rather the attitude and the reasons behind it, in much the same way that giving a name to a particular physical condition can be helpful.

Angus: who is saying that the only reason that some one might not progress as fast as expected is because they have a fixed mindset? No one.

It's the job of the coach to spot issues and respond positively not negatively

Eh that is exactly the point - except in your view if the problem is that they have a fear of not appearing talented.

No-one is recommending a 'negative' approach.

I would suggest that how people respond to praise is not straight forward and if there is evidence that one type of praise may hinder a child's development surely coaches/parents should take note?

[Craig Pritchett]

This fascinating discussion continues. "Fixed" modes of thinking certainly won't get either naturally talented or naturally hard working players very far at all. Life's much more complex than that.

In education there are two (very) broad schools of thought about a child's learning: Piaget's view emphasises stages of intellectual development and relates these to age and physical and mental change; Bourdieu's view stresses that the child acts as a significant self-motivating actor in its own development in response to external stimuli.

The former leads to the idea that curricula should be carefully staged - e.g. Piaget-like thinkers often stress that, as chess is an essentially adult conceptual game, children aren't really likely to make significant headway in it until around about 12, when, they often assert, the ability to conceptualise only really begins to kick in. Bourdieu-like thinkers may not dissent from such Piaget-like thinking as a general prescription for learning (and the development of curricula ... and chess-training schemes) but stress that many (possibly very many) individual children have it in themselves to develop either much faster (or slower) than the mainstream.

Teachers (chess coaches) should be aware of such different schools of thought and ideally capable of cutting such intellectual Gordian knots faced with real pupils and the learning challenges they actually present. There is no definitive answer to what is "perfect" teaching (coaching). A good teacher (coach) simply gets on with it, develops pragmatic prescriptions, applies them flexibly and as intelligently as possible, given pupil responses ... and hopefully gets results.

Hope helpful ... I'm off to play some chess shortly ... I'm still learning!

[TomHay]

To tread amongst those more experienced than me....

There is also the introspective observation school of thought in relation to education promoted by Vygotsky and Piaget. To boil it down rather harshly this can be seen in schools now in metacognitive strategies - "tell them WHY we are teaching this" - and self reflection by learners - helping them see how they are learning and what they can do to improve/learn grow. In my limited experience this fits well with learning and improving in chess. Why am I learning this and what can I do to improve?

To me the mindset discussion is swallowed up in these ideas - those who are naturally talented may have a "fixed mindset" as they do not need to improve to win and don't see any need to improve. Those with a "growth mindset" may be those who are reflecting on their games (at any level of appreciation or skill) and looking for areas of improvement no matter how small.

In any event, whatever view you take, being able to spot those mindsets or reflective abilities and produce an input which will have a positive impact is a different kettle of fish altogether....

[Mike Scott]

Tom/Craig,
Interesting stuff and I will need to go and do some research on those mentioned.

I can see where you are coming from Tom but not sure if it is exactly the same thing: will need to think about it! To me what you're saying is that it is a lack of motivation to learn. Whereas the fixed mindset arises because the person has a fear of failure that might invalidate their self-image of being gifted. That is clearly a reason for the lack of motivation but it (fixed mindset) is more specific and therefore might be a more useful 'condition' to recognise and hence make it easier to apply the right remedy.

For example if you correctly believe that someone does not progress because they have become demotivated because they have tired of beating their club mates at school, you might stimulate them by taking them down the road to the adult club. On the other hand no longer being the top dog might well not be experienced as a challenge to be embraced rather a threat to their self-belief.

Ultimately these ideas are only of value if they do produce improved understanding of why we behave as we do and allow us or our mentors to improve outcomes.

[StevieHilton]

As Craig has said this has really developed into a most interesting discussion. First of all a player must have self belief in themselves. I think chessplayer do realise that the further they go up the chess ladder, they have to learn new tricks so to speak. These type of lessons do make a player "battle hardened" Having talent is often not enough to progress. You must also know how to deal with difficult periods in your development as a chessplayer. Everyone goes through that from time to time. having talent and the ability to absorb lessons at the chessboard is the key.
Another key is to have interest outside of chess" This would you to develop as a human being and make you more complete. Being more rounded as a whole would be the benefit to your development as a chessplayer.

[Mike Scott]

I think chessplayer do realise that the further they go up the chess ladder, they have to learn new tricks so to speak

Sometimes they know but do they actually do the really hard graft to improve what their poor at, or do they just focus on what they believe their good at. I think this may be related to something Jonathan Rowson raises in his excellent books: they way we have a myth about who we are as a player and we try and live up to that.

I would also add that not everyone does really understand why they do certain things and avoid others, especially when they're young. It is frequently a sub-conscious reaction.

Not sure if this is really related but my theory of teaching chess is to focus on why we make bad moves rather than how to make great ones - juniors manage the latter often enough. This grew out of a frustration of reading so many (well a few) books as I grew up that really just seemed to explain/show how clever the greats were. We all like dreaming of playing like a world champ. and find it easier to study their games rather than working on our own weaknesses.

[Angus McDonald]

Stephen, Craig and others have talked about self belief.

I think that self belief is a key to being able to do almost anything to your best ability.

I also think that vast numbers of the world's top sportsmen profess belief in a creator. I think that shows a humble attitude to their talent. They are almost saying that their talent isn't their credit it's their creators credit. Many top sportsmen will even almost immediately give credit to God after a winning performance.
There are many Biblical passages which state that such an attitude will receive more blessing.

Then motivation is important. Why would someone give glory to God? Out of love for their creator or for what they get back out of that? Purifying the motivation is a daily thing which requires some time and contemplation.

So for me, there is a spritual aspect to progress a spiritual aspect which the scientists and psychologists will never acknowledge. If a top sportsmans ability is all about themselves then that has limited value. When it is connected to something bigger than themselves then it has bigger value.
This isn't a material value but rather a spiritual value.

When a child sponges everything in and performs difficult skills beautifully and learns them within 1 40 minute period as I have seen countless times you just marvel at the incredible gift we all have which is our lives to enjoy such experiences. The experience of teaching and indeed the experience of learning and ofcourse much much more. Not one of us created ourselves.

This is the secret ingredient which will often determine the greatest i.e. Muhammed Ali from the excellent but not 'great' sportsman.

So I say to youngsters never doubt your ability and never doubt your talent and if someone comes along trying to get you to do so, see the doubting thomas spirit behind them! At the same time be humble to the gift which is your talent.

The greatest self belief comes from centering that belief on something bigger than yourself. The belief that you have a loving creator who has counted every hair on your head amongst many other things.

Mike at the start of this thread you asked for thoughts.
I've just given some =)

regards,
Angus

[StevieHilton]

I do agree with what you say there Angus, for me it is part of being a well balanced personto sumthat up I will quote from the film Chariots of Fire, "When I Run I feel Gods pleasure" That is why I said in the thread earlier that it is important to have a life outside of the sport you ecell at.

[Mike Scott]

Hi Angus,
All thoughts welcome!

I have no doubts that many people do indeed get great inspiration from a belief in a god but clearly not all do believe in god and so is clearly not a source of inspiration for all. I would agree with the thought

When it is connected to something bigger than themselves then it has bigger value

but I would not limit that to a religious context: it can be being part of a team, a club or a community.

BTW what is your definition of 'talent'?

This was one of the first questions asked in the original talk because understanding what makes one person more successful than another allows you to work out ways to enable the under achiever to improve. I am not sure if you are saying that God is the inspiration, like a sporting hero if you like or whether he/she is the source of what makes someone successful?

My fear is if you are saying the latter then what do you say to those that at an early age have shown no special applitude? Because the implication is that they have not been blessed by God!

Remember I am primarily interested in what makes a successful junior continue and to develop their skill, so that you can help those that do not find it so easy.