Richardson/Spens - what next?

[Keith Rose]

Another aspect:

What about time control? A suggestion has been made for the Richardson - incremental time controls, 40 in 90 + 30sec/ from move 1

Thoughts?

[Andy Howie]

Might prevent clubs from entering. I know of several that don't use digital clocks

[George Neave]

I like your proposal Keith. I also like the idea of time increments. The only point not covered is do we relax player eligibility rules (or not) and, if so, how.

PS have not consulted colleagues so this is a personal opinion only.

[Keith Rose]

George - Andy's reply suggests that increments are not feasible. It surprises me a little that any club/team entering the Richardson would not not have digital clocks. Perhaps this is one for the future.

Re eligibility rules (do you mean the bona fide rules?), we have had some issues around these this season so regardless of any changes to format the bf rules must change. The need for any team member to be a paid member is unsustainable - how can it be proved one way or the other? So this is another topic that needs serious discussion. Just to save anyone looking out the rules here is the relevant section:

4. To be bona fide a player should have:-

a) Paid the required membership fee for the current season* and
b) Satisfied at least one of the following:

Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Has not represented another Scottish club in the Richardson Cup in the previous three seasons and lives, works or studies within 30 miles of the proposing club’s normal meeting place. In remote areas this distance will be extended to include the nearest appropriate club.

As before, all contributions welcome. Particularly from anyone who will/might play in the Richardson.

[Phil Thomas]

George - Andy's reply suggests that increments are not feasible. It surprises me a little that any club/team entering the Richardson would not not have digital clocks. Perhaps this is one for the future.

Re eligibility rules (do you mean the bona fide rules?), we have had some issues around these this season so regardless of any changes to format the bf rules must change. The need for any team member to be a paid member is unsustainable - how can it be proved one way or the other? So this is another topic that needs serious discussion. Just to save anyone looking out the rules here is the relevant section:

4. To be bona fide a player should have:-

a) Paid the required membership fee for the current season* and
b) Satisfied at least one of the following:

Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Has not represented another Scottish club in the Richardson Cup in the previous three seasons and lives, works or studies within 30 miles of the proposing club’s normal meeting place. In remote areas this distance will be extended to include the nearest appropriate club.

As before, all contributions welcome. Particularly from anyone who will/might play in the Richardson.

Interesting interesting interesting.
First time I've read any part of the qualification rules. As a player in the event and never (as yet) a captain that is, I assume, not unusual.

Unfortunate thing is at the time of Hamilton's win in the Spens in Edinburgh I had not yet paid my membership (family membership that is) for Hamilton club for season 2014-15.

Therefore if Edinburgh Civil Service had read the rules after the match and demanded to know if rule (a) had been followed then the Hamilton team would have been disqualified.

Definitely time to change the bona fide rules to something more workable. Before we reach a situation where matches are routinely decided by appeals made after the match rather than the quality of moves made at the board.

[John Watkins]

Maybe the eligability rules should be changed to:
"
4. To be bona fide a player should have:-
a) Paid the required membership fee for the current season and
b) Satisfied at least one of the following:
(i) Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
(ii) Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
(iii) Has not represented another Scottish club in the Richardson Cup in the previous three seasons.
"

I do not see the relevance of distance in this small nation of ours.

As a knockout cup event, the Richardson should remain just that. We do have SNCL for national team league events after all.

[Keith Rose]

This evening I emailed the secretaries of all Scottish clubs and the captains of this season's teams. The text of that email was:

Options for reform of Richardson and Spens Cups from 2015-16 season:

Richardson Cup

Format:

1. Retain the knockout format;
2. Groups - 2 groups of four, top finishers in each group to meet in team finals, bottom of each group to play-off for relegation. Advantages of groups is that each team would get at least three matches, four in the case of first- and last-place;
3. Four team all-play-all during one weekend of Fri/Sat/Sun or Sat/Sun/Mon

Team numbers:
1) 16
2) 8
3) 4

Team size:
1) 8
2) 7
3) 6
4) 5

Pools – max size 12, published at start of season

Eligibility (bona fide rules):

Currently -

To be bona fide a player should have:-
a) Paid the required membership fee for the current season* and
b) Satisfied at least one of the following:
Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Has not represented another Scottish club in the Richardson Cup in the previous three seasons and lives, works or studies within 30 miles of the proposing club’s normal meeting place. In remote areas this distance will be extended to include the nearest appropriate club.

Suggestions:

Remove a) – Impossible to prove one way or the other;
Retain - Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Has not represented another … But delete from ' .. and lives …'
Add - Must be SCO registered and/or have played in Scotland the previous season. Players not SCO registered but attending university or working in Scotland are eligible but evidence must be provided at least seven days in advance of playing.

Time control:

1) Retain 40 in 2 hrs + 30 mins quickplay;
2) Increments, but not all clubs have digital clocks;
3) Current time control but increments in the final.

Also for consideration - playing at central locations (cost, and therefore entry fees, would be factors). Could be shared with Spens matches;
Alternatively, area/grouped venues, e.g. Glasgow, Edinburgh & Dundee areas.
Playing on a Sat and Sun of several weekends if groups/league format(s) find favour.

Spens Cup

Format:
1) Retain the current knockout format, first-match losers enter the Rosebowl;
2) Scrap the Spens;
3) Groups as with Richardson suggestion but maximum of 5 teams in each group. Any more than 10 entries would need 3 groups.

Team size:
1) 5
2) 4

Eligibility (bona fide rules):

Currently
To be bona fide a player should have:-

a) Paid the required membership fee for the current season* and
b) Satisfied at least one of the following:

Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Lives, works or studies within 30 miles of the proposing club’s normal meeting place. In remote areas this distance will be extended to include the nearest appropriate club.

Suggestions:

Remove a) – Impossible to prove one way or the other;
Retain - Represented the club in other competitive events during the current or preceding season;
Participated in the club’s graded internal tournaments in the current or preceding season;
Remove - Lives, works or studies …

Permit an unattached or surplus player to play for a club with which he/she is not a formal member.

Also for consideration - playing at central locations (cost, and therefore entry fees, would be factors). Could be shared with Richardson matches;
Alternatively, area/grouped venues, e.g. Glasgow, Edinburgh & Dundee areas.
Playing on a Sat and Sun of several weekends if group/league format(s) find favour.

Further consideration in due course regarding Rosebowl.

I also sent the contents of the earlier postings in this forum to get them started and I have asked for feedback by end of June

Further thoughts would be welcome.
.

[Alan Tate]

Was there ever a conclusion about when the pairings should be published? I suggest 10pm the night before, or something similar.

[amuir]

Can we get rid of the extra round in the rosebowl ?

"The rosebowl shall constitute 4 or 8 teams. The controller shall eliminate surplus teams by considering game points scored in the Spens".

[Craig Pritchett]

To expand on Richardson option for change (3) in Keith Rose's letter, which I think derives from a suggestion I made for possible change in another thread on 'sponsorship', let me add a little more to explain.

First, the aim of 'reducing' the Richardson to a four team all-play-all weekend in late-May (from 2016-17) is to rejuvenate both the Richardson and Spens. The 'new' Richardson effectively becomes a 'Super-Cup', while the Spens becomes a de facto 'Scottish Cup', open to all.

Note that this option deliberately allows a club to win BOTH the Spens and Richardson Cups, i.e. to become Scottish Cup and Super Cup champions, in the same season. The two Spens finalists (event to be completed by end-April each year) - unless they are the top two already pre-qualified teams from the previous year's Richardson, which will mean that the two defeated Spens semi-finalists go forward - qualify for the (late-May) Richardson weekend, where they meet the previous year's top two teams in the Richardson weekend event, and so on.

Second, and to emphasise, the Spens is truly open to all, which, to repeat, includes the two, pre-qualified Richardson weekend teams from the previous season (if they wish to play, although they won't be competing for the Richardson, Super Cup places, only the carrot of winning the Scottish Cup, of course). I think that kind of enhanced prestige for a new Scottish Cup (Spens) event is likely to be attractive to most current Richardson and Spens Club competitors.

Thirdly, as the organisation of the 'new' Richardson Super Cup event requires only one (late-May) weekend (say, Friday evening or Monday afternoon match, plus the other two matches on Sat and Sunday), that's not a great organisational problem. Teams should remain at 8 players (and I'd prefer increments, but that's a detail).

The question remains, however, whether to keep the new Spens on a wholly KO basis or change it to a group plus final basis, along lines outlined earlier in this thread by Keith Rose for the Richardson (and possibly also the Spens). I think either could work, but this is an important point for sensible consultation about what clubs might think best. Similarly, whether to stick to 6 boards or expand the new Spens (or Scottish Cup!) to 8 player teams needs consultation.

Overall, I think that this kind of streamlined introduction of a Super Cup, all-play-all weekend, plus a Scottish Cup, open to all, is not just attractive but realistic, too, not least from the point of view of a crammed calendar domestically and internationally. Players of all strengths are likely to commit to this, as it's an exciting challenge. The new Richardson 'Super Cup' weekend, moreover, has a commitment and focus about it that has potential to attract sponsorship ... sponsors generally want to see a sport commit to events that resonate EXCELLENCE BEFORE they even consider parting with any £s (other than pure philanthropists) and even AHEAD of whether they will get sufficient 'return' for their investment, however they judge that ... no guarantees, of course, and the new event needs no sponsorship to start off anyway.

Time to be truly radical!? Go for the 'Super-Cup' / 'Scottish Cup' option!?