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Hi Ken seems a bit obvious but I'll ask anyway
what if a draw claim is made by a player and then during dilberations it is noticed that that player's flag has fallan? Since the draw claim in domestic leagues indicates the end of the player session, due the fact that the draw claim has already been made make any bearing? Also what if instead the player makes a draw claim and then it is observed that the other player's flag has fallen? Is the first player obliged by the draw claim even though technically he know technically has a winning claim?
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Can be tricky claiming a 2 minute draw with no arbiter present.
The Glasgow league rules cover this with .....
The player on the move may claim a draw when they have less than two minutes left on
their clock by stopping the clock before their flag falls.
This concludes the game.
Which ought to cover things.
If you stop the clock with your opponents flag down - the game had already finished. Just claim the win on time
Best to write down the position before the adjudication enthousiasts move in for the kill
.
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Not to sure I agree with Phil's interpretation. I'm not sure the Laws of Chess agree either.
6.8 A flag is considered to have fallen when the arbiter observes the fact or when either player has made a valid claim to that effect.
By that Law the flag is not down until the opponent has pointed it out. If this has not happened then the game is ended by the draw claim and realisation afterwards that the flag is down has occurred too late. The draw claim should be judged on the merits of the claim and not on the clock times.
This is quite different from a congress situation where the draw claim does not end the game so a claim of a win on time would be valid there.
In answer to the original questions. In both cases the flag being down does not affect matters as the game is ended before the flag is deemed to have fallen. In the second case the team-mates of the player claiming the draw are permitted to take him outside and inflict suitable punishment, especially if the outcome of the match was adversely affected by his lack of observation.
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This query probably relates to one of my recent Glasgow League games.
There is a disputes procedure which may or may not be used so I will not say too much here.
Basically in game with both players down to 20s i was playing to draw my opponent to win. There was opponents flagfall. Now I cannot win normally but there is mating material. I had offered draws but my opponent, probably caught up in the game ,played to flagfall. He ought to have simply claimed a draw himself when down to a few seconds...but did not.
I did not notice flagfall but instead it was called by my team captain who was further adamant that no draw be agreed. There was then quite a lot of noise as happens.
Normally no issue as I would give a draw once it was clear that did not matter to the team result but here it does matter...I think to both teams. Its just very unfortunate.
On the evening I was unsure of captains rights but riule 7 b explicitly states that captain can call flagfall.
However this works out its just unfortunate that the match result is in the balance. I have given my full version of events in writing with the claim for a win and I assume the opposing team captain will have received ...I have not yet received feedback but i assume the team captains will resolve this.
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Also the Glasgow rules have
A player may claim on the basis; a) That their opponent cannot win by normal means,
What do we mean by "normal means"? Sufficient mating material or is the draw agreed to the current position?
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I think the normal means claim is the 2 minute rule and has to be made before flagfall when it becomes mating material...thats how I undersand it....the issue the other night was draw offers declined by my opponent and play to flagfall without any claim by either player. Its unfortunate but this kind of thing happens when in time trouble.
Otherwise claims under the 2 minute rule seem to be quite common in the Glasgow League....the game is then stopped and position recorded....sometimes players will take some time to consider whether to agree the draw or not. I do not know whether most games then end in a draw but I would guess not.
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Alex,
Not sure I made myself clear.
Speaking as a player. When about to claim a 2 minute draw in a league match with no arbiter present I would
1. Stop the clock.
2. Check that I had not run out of time.
3. Say "I Wish to claim a ....."
4. Speak one more word either "draw" if my opponent has some time left or else "win" if his flag has fallen.
If I claim the draw after my opponents flag falls. I guess its time to get out of the building while my team mates analyse the position.
