Grandparents rule

[David Deary]

Phil, I believe David was suggesting that we only use birth as a means for determining who you can play for and thus everyone was born in a country so they could represent that country. Thus no-one would be stateless.

As I pointed out earlier AGMs are not necessarily the most representative. Can someone direct me to the policy/procedure regarding proxy votes? As I will be attending the SGM and will either amend this motion to Dougie's suggestion of:

Perhaps the halfway house of grandparent gets you on the FIDE list as SCO but you must choose to reside here before you can play is the way to go.

Or vote against this motion. I am also keen to ensure that those who are likeminded with me on this proposal are not excluded from the decision making process. If anyone is unable to attend the SGM but would still like their view expressed pm me or email me at david.deary(at)gmail.com.

I have slept on this and I still remain uncomfortable. (Perhaps its my mattress 8) )
Has representing Scotland become a numbers game? If you number is big enough we'll change the rules for representing Scotland. If you have contributed to Scottish chess we will reward you with eligibility to play for Scotland? Because if either of these is the slightest bit true it is worrying.

I also believe the proposers of this motion who are the custodians of Chess Scotland are on very shaky ground on this issue. Chess Scotland's primary objective is to:
The primary object of Chess Scotland shall be to foster and promote the game of Chess throughout Scotland among players of all ages...

Has this now changed? This proposal is not in the spirit of CS's primary objective: it will allow us to select players who do not play in Scotland, live outwith Scotland and are not born in Scotland and have a tenuous link to Scotland through one grandparent. How can this possibly promote and foster chess in Scotland?

Edit to add: By a strange twist of fate it is my Granddad's 70th birthday today. He was born in Wales, I just had a look at the Welsh team and I've got as much chance of making that as I do the Scottish team! D'oh!

[Alex McFarlane]

This is obviously a difficult issue. For every qualification procedure suggested there are people who you would not want to qualify and there are also people excluded who you would want accepted.

Is it acceptable to insist on birth? This could exclude a number of juniors whose parents' work has taken them abroad and are considered Scottish to all intents and purposes.

Is residence alone a condition? This would exclude a number of established players.

On the other hand is it acceptable to allow someone who was born here whilst the parents worked/holidayed here but spent only the first week or two of their lives in this country?

I know dealing with exceptions leads to bad rules. Service to Scotland may be a better criteria but how would you define this?

I'm genuinely unsure how I will vote on this issue. I need to declare an interest however. Lara Barnes could claim SCO if the grandparent rule was accepted.

Perhaps birth (or parentage) or residence with the ability for Council or Board to consider other individual applications is the best of a bad lot.

[robin moore]

I am extremely edgy about the possible implications suggested in the second paragraph of Alex's post.

[David G Congalton]

Phil, I believe David was suggesting that we only use birth as a means for determining who you can play for and thus everyone was born in a country so they could represent that country. Thus no-one would be stateless.

I wasn't suggesting anything, just asking the question but you are right I was asking solely about country of birth with no other caveats.

I have always assumed that if you were born in Scotland, regardless of how you came to be born here or how long you stayed after your birth, you should be eligible to represent Scotland at international level, in anything that Scotland is represented at International level in.

I can see no arguments against the criteria of being eligible to represnt a country if were born in it. I would consider that a birthright.

In asking the original question I am seeking answers as to why all other criteria, including parentage and residency, should be considered acceptable means of eligibility for international selection, in order that I can give the matter fullest consideration and make an informed decision on how I should vote.

[Phil Thomas]

As I pointed out earlier AGMs are not necessarily the most representative. Can someone direct me to the policy/procedure regarding proxy votes?

David,
will you also be submitting proxy votes on behalf of people who disagree with you?

If the answer is no there is a danger that you make the meeting less representative than it would have been.

[andyburnett]

Personally speaking, the following requirements would be necessary to satisfy me for someone to attain full Scottish international status at adult level.

-born in Scotland (regardless of residency) or,

-parents born in Scotland plus 1 year residency or,

-grandparents born in Scotland plus 3 year residency or,

-citizenship of UK plus 3 years Scottish residency or,

-residency of 5 years.

Andy Burnett

[Craig Pritchett]

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The actual selection criteria are worth stating - see link above

They seem quite clear (and perfectly good as they are) to me and cover two possible anomalies that Alex McFarlane raised: 1. if born "outside" Scotland you still qualify by having at some (any) time "resided" in Scotland for 2 yrs (1 yr if junior), thus covering against a "true" Scot that just "happens" to have been born outside Scotland; 2. they allow Anglo-Scots to play even if they haven't "resided" in Scotland for years (as long as they remain paid up CS members - which covered me for decades when living in Germany and England).

[andyburnett]

The 'actual selection criteria' as linked by Craig

• Was the player born in Scotland? No problem with this and doubt if anyone else really has either!? As David Congalton points out, some things are universally considered 'birthrights'.

• Were either or both of the player’s parents born in Scotland? I still think this requires a residency 'addition'. For example, someone who emigrated to Australia 40 years ago, had kids and somehow those children are 'Scottish' without ever having been here seems a bit far-fetched really.

• If the player is 18 or more years old, has he/she been permanently resident in Scotland for at least two years (if a junior, that is under 18, the equivalent time is one year)? I think it should be longer. I've worked in other countries for longer than that and personally wouldn't expect to be eligible for a national team on the basis of 2 years residency.

• Has the player been previously accepted as qualifying for Scottish representation? Does this rule mean that, for example, Jacob Aagaard could represent Scotland again in the future if he changed his mind? I can't say I was overly impressed by the way that worked last time, although I fully accept that he contributed a LOT to Scottish chess at the time. (and perhaps continues to?!)

If there are going to be changes made, I think it should reflect the 'level' of Scottishness!? The more remote or tenuous the link to being Scottish, the longer any residency clause should become.

Anyway, if it is a simple for or against the change, then I'm definitely against

[robin moore]

All,

This is obviously a very difficult and complex topic. I wish to suggest a hypothetical scenario. A family from an oil producing nation in Eastern Europe come to Scotland as economic migrants. They have to travel back and forward as a family to Eastern Europe every six months or so because of the vital importance of their father's job. The children are not born in Scotland, their parents are not born in Scotland, their grandparents are not born in Scotland. One of the sons of this family is the best junior at his year agegroup by a mile and represents Scotland from the age of ten till an older teenager at all levels up to major international events. His family fund and support ChessScotland for this child at all levels. What do you want me to tell him when he is a master level player at the age of eighteen and able to represent Scotland on the adult international stage? Would you like me to tell him that we have got together and decided that we don't want him to represent Scotland as an adult because he does not qualify right now? Or do you want me to tell him it's ok for him to marry a nice Scottish girl, have a family and they can play for Scotland, but I am sorry you can't, at least not for a few years? Is this what we are trying to achieve? I know this may be an extreme example to some but to those that have put a huge amount of effort into Scottish junior chess in the past and at present, it is not far away from reality.

Robin.

[Phil Thomas]

All,

This is obviously a very difficult and complex topic. I wish to suggest a hypothetical scenario. A family from an oil producing nation in Eastern Europe come to Scotland as economic migrants. They have to travel back and forward as a family to Eastern Europe every six months or so because of the vital importance of their father's job. The children are not born in Scotland, their parents are not born in Scotland, their grandparents are not born in Scotland. One of the sons of this family is the best junior at his year agegroup by a mile and represents Scotland from the age of ten till an older teenager at all levels up to major international events. His family fund and support ChessScotland for this child at all levels. What do you want me to tell him when he is a master level player at the age of eighteen and able to represent Scotland on the adult international stage? Would you like me to tell him that we have got together and decided that we don't want him to represent Scotland as an adult because he does not qualify right now? Or do you want me to tell him it's ok for him to marry a nice Scottish girl, have a family and they can play for Scotland, but I am sorry you can't, at least not for a few years? Is this what we are trying to achieve? I know this may be an extreme example to some but to those that have put a huge amount of effort into Scottish junior chess in the past and at present, it is not far away from reality.

Robin.

Which is why the final call has to be left to the wisdom of the selectors.

And this is why the selectors need some flexibility in the rules/guidelines applying to their deliberations.