EGM

[Alex McFarlane]

My recollection of the 2009 meeting was that there were less than a handful of people against the proposal.

I agree with the reasons stated by Ken but would also add that removal of the word 'normal' could prevent important decisions being taken. The procedure must take account of legal processes as well.
As a hypothetical case - an arbiter is provoked into punching a player. He is charged with assault. If the result of the court case has to be awaited (normal practice) then removal of 'normal' prevents procedures being continued.
Is such a situation really desirable? It may be that the legal process is all that is needed but this may not be so.

[David G Congalton]

Its not a turf war. The simple fact is there is no point having two bodies doing the same thing. That is what we have just now.

Or twenty-two bodies or however many county associations there are? So we could all utilise the CS standards committee, assuming we all agree on the standards. Those involved in local standards committee could then turn their attention and time to other parts of chess in their County which could benefit.

The Ayrshire Chess Association has a Greivance Procedure incorporating procedures for complaints, disciplinary action and appeals. You were at the last Ayrshire AGM where this was discussed at length.

I'm not entirely sure I was awake for the whole of this discussion. I haven't seen any AGM minutes, so I can't check back. I recall I was elected to the Ayrshire committee but as I haven't heard anything since, I may have been dreaming at this point.

I think I had a similar dream at the CS AGM.

I find it badly written and illy conceived.

Are you talking about the procedures, the standards or both? Like most things, there are areas that could be improved but overall I think both are good starting points for a standards committee to develop.

an arbiter is provoked into punching a player

Where do you start with a quote like this?

[David Deary]

I'm still looking for answers on the following:

How much time was afforded to Leagues and Associations to consider this proposal in 2009 and give their feedback prior to the AGM?

When was our last audit by the Scottish Government and what were the findings as I cannot find anyting relating to such an audit?

Also can you provide the correspondance from the Scottish Government highlighting as you alluded to that they wouldn't be happy with leagues where they have their own codes administering their own standards.

Or twenty-two bodies or however many county associations there are? So we could all utilise the CS standards committee, assuming we all agree on the standards. Those involved in local standards committee could then turn their attention and time to other parts of chess in their County which could benefit.

In an ideal world you could conceivably do this but I think it would be tough to get a consensus. Hence the reason this code wasn't discussed with Leagues and Associations prior to the 2009 AGM as is evidenced from the minutes from that AGM. To bring about a code such as you speak you would need to have a consultation, debate and a proposal. This didn't happen with this as far as I can see.

[Alex McFarlane]

Alex McFarlane wrote:an arbiter is provoked into punching a player Where do you start with a quote like this?

David - That was a brief simplification of an accusation made in an appeal I was involved in. Such things happen occasionally. In that case the police were (surprisingly) not involved but should have been.

Whilst I support the idea of things being done locally there can be problems with this. The first one being that it is very easy for those you wish to be involved in making the final decision already having been involved in the dispute. Another being that if the complaint is made against a senior person locally then there can be problems with either people being unhappy to have to investigate that official or the person making the complaint may have great difficulty accepting that a fair decision was reached.

Just as Chess Scotland can go to FIDE, any local association should be able to go to Chess Scotland if necessary. Remember the Standards Committee can be seen as a method of supporting a decision not just as a disciplinary procedure.

[David Deary]

Whilst I support the idea of things being done locally there can be problems with this. The first one being that it is very easy for those you wish to be involved in making the final decision already having been involved in the dispute. Another being that if the complaint is made against a senior person locally then there can be problems with either people being unhappy to have to investigate that official or the person making the complaint may have great difficulty accepting that a fair decision was reached.

The same is true at a national level Alex as I'm sure you appreciate. Quite how that becomes an argument against doing it locally I'm not so sure.

For instance in Ayrshire we don't have members of the Management Committee sit on the Grievance/Complaints/Appeals Committees but in CS you have two Directors (according to Steve) on the Committee. That seems at odds with your post.

[David G Congalton]

David - That was a brief simplification of an accusation made in an appeal I was involved in. Such things happen occasionally. In that case the police were (surprisingly) not involved but should have been.

Alex, apologies for my glibness on this. It was a very poor attempt to bring a little levity to what could be considered a dull, all be it important, subject.

I still think this is largely, if not wholly a control issue and that the criticisms of the operational procedures and standards code is a bit of a smokescreen to disguise the fact that some are not happy with not having control.

The impartiality of local standards/grievance committees is something that does concern me.

Were I in the unfortunate position of being complained about or had a complaint, I would much rather have this heard by a body of people who were removed from the situation, than a body of my peers whom I would in all likeliehood come across three or four times a year, or more.

[Alex McFarlane]

The only Director I am aware of on the Standard's Committee is Ken Stewart the Director responsible for it. Even here Ken is not on the Board. The Committee is appointed at the AGM. The Appeals Committee cannot have a Director. I think it is difficult to get anything much more open and fair than that.

The same is true at a national level Alex as I'm sure you appreciate.

It is obviously more difficult to find people locally who were not involved in a dispute than it would be nationally. Whilst there is a similar problem at national level it would not be so accute. At a recent British Championships appeal we only just had two arbiters for the 5 person appeal committee because everyone else had been involved in some way in the events leading up to the appeal.

[Hugh Brechin]

how many people actually attended the AGM of 2009?

I can't even begin to describe how much I'm staying out of this debate in general, but I think it's only fair to point out that - due at least in part to some reasonably contentious junior stuff (that all got resolved very amicably, as I recall, which was nice) - the 2009 AGM was actually very well-attended. Not sure how many attendees there were, off the top of my head, but I'd say at least 40-50, with not many fewer open proxies than that.

The vote in favour of the adoption of the Standards Code was genuinely pretty overwhelming, yes. It wasn't a case of proxies pushing it through: the motion had widespread support in the room.

[David Deary]

Please note:

As fellow posters have been sniping at me on other topics.
I am not stating the position of the Ayrshire Chess Association just what my own personal opinion is.

The Association's view on this is still to come. I have also tried to answer as many points as I can (although many questions I ask don't seem to be afforded the courtesy). I did not propose this motion or have a hand in drating it and have contributed to this topic as much as I can. So I won't be posting on it again as I am exhausted by looking at constitutions, procedures, policies, minutes of meeting etc. and not being able to provide anymore clarity.

I'm out (off to a darkened room I go) =)

[StevieHilton]

Alex,
There are 2 including Donald Wilson on the SC I apologise if I am wrong