Domestic touraments survey

[Alan Tate]

I must admit that having given it some thought and reading Steve and Alex's points, many of which I had not considered, that it's not a simple issue at all. Come to think of it, the only Fide rated weekender I have played is Edinburgh: home advantage + good prize fund + relatively strong.

How important is it that the top Scottish players compete in weekenders? I'd say it is important - aspiring players get to play and learn from them and a GM or IM certainly adds to the prestige of the tournament.

Is £150 first prize enough compensation? Not unless it's local. You'd have to win outright not to make a financial loss and as mentioned 4.5/5 just to not lose rating. However this is not entirely an unexpected result. One thing I've noticed is that you rarely see several 2300+ players play the same tournament which makes sense given the risk/reward ratio. Is chess rewarding enough to just play? In my opinion if it's not in the morning, yes ; )
Is £300? Maybe.
£500? Yes.
Andrew Greet doesn't seem to care though and he has more to lose than most.
Possible solution: increase entry fees (see Largs). However there are downsides to this such as the obvious excluding of those who can't afford it.

Perhaps many will feel that this is elitist nonsense. There are quite a number of Fide rated tournaments around. If they are doing well then what's the problem.

One point I'm still unclear about is whether CS rated tournaments attract more/stronger players and offhand it doesn't feel like it, though if anyone has any stats I'd be interested.

[George Neave]

I wonder how many of the 2100+ rated players who see no issue with weekenders being FIDE rated are also putting in a 40+ hour working week?

I agree with Steve. If your FIDE rating is driving your chances for international selection and invites then it's natural to be concerned that your personal condition is not placing performance at extra risk. A 2-tier system with CS only events means such players are more likely to pitch up for a bit of fun and give the rest of us a chance to take them down. I would love to see both CS and FIDE events in Scotland. I don't think the weekender is the right formula for FIDE. Currently only the Scottish Championship seems suited in my opinion.

[Ianbrownlee]

don't forget guys I am only talking about a one day rapid play rated event. In my opinion from CS point of view CS has nothing to do with non CS events. Only the Richardson and Spens are FIDE rated which are one game per day events. The SNCL is also a non CS event. From what I am reading, there is no major objection about the rapid play being FIDE rated apart from one or two. We will just wait and see what happens and amend future rapid play events accordingly. The rapid play grade would have little to do with International selection

[Jonathan Livingstone]

Jonathan,

I don't agree with you that the Scottish game is doomed. Speaking from an Ayrshire perspective we have...

Ayr congress
Largs congress
Irvine Spring congress
Marymass congress
Stewarton allegro
Prestwick allegro
Ayrshire Masters
Irvine Open

The Ayrshire Chess Association also run the very successful Ayrshire individual Championships, three leagues plus many smaller adult and junior events. Apologies if I have missed any out.

Now, if you feel there is a lack of events in your neck of the woods then you have to tackle that as individuals and local associations and I am certain that ChessScotland will help in any way possible.

Hi Robin with all respect, the events listed does nothing to tell the story. The true picture is all established congresses are well known to be in long term decline

Ayr which is probably the most popular and plush, and my personal favourite is down significantly in numbers. And there was until recently the 2 Ayrshire congresses running during the season. I am sure if you compare the last 2 years data from the CS grading pages you will see the weekenders all show a clear decline. And what about Glasgow which has not ran for what 3 years now? One of the most accessible congress in the West, gone and yet to reappear.

I prefer to look at the numbers attending the established core congresses as a measure of decline (or a most unlikely upturn), along with the actual state and membership numbers of clubs. That's a logical decline gauge for me. New events come and go and are frequently modified. Looking at the established congresses paints quite a different picture to just looking at the number of events available. The spread of events has to be significant also (i.e. reduction in choice, challengers being merged into other events). As does factors like the decrease in prize money.

We all love our chess, but I don't really know how much more evidence we need before there is some country wide realisation that the game is doomed. Is like the Ice Age, it is happening, just not as obvious as you might think. The ice melted over time, and the chess boards are disappearing from the landscape too. So as a Glenrothes, Glasgow or Lothians disappear. We loose a Sabre Tooth Tiger, a Woolly Mammoth and a Plesiosaur.

2016-15, 2015/14, 2014/13 Season Congress Numbers displayed below

AYR - 95, 114, 117 * (*includes 7 for 1 day Junior event)
MARYMASS - 88, 78, 91
LARGS - 54, 44, 71* (* includes 10 for 1 day Junior event)
DUNDEE - 114, 134, 127
OBAN - 111, 100, 93
EDINBURGH - 171, 207, 188

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[robin moore]

Jonathan,

If you remove the small junior element from the congress events of the 2014-13 season, and we add up the total entrants from those particular events, totals are...

Season 14-13 670

Season 15-14 677

Season 16-15 633

Clearly in the most recent completed season total entrants are down in those events but not by huge numbers. You also have to consider that in season 15-14 there were 11 congresses and in the most recent, 16-15, there were 15 congresses including events like the superb new Perth congress which attracted 101 entrants, excellent for a new addition to the calendar.

[Andy Howie]

Robin,

If I can throw a spanner into the calculation. If we look at who organised the new tournaments it is (with the exception of Largs) one person. Take that out of the equation and it is not looking good at all!

If I look back to when I used to play seriously (pre arbiting) when I was going for the Grand Prix along with my friend Jim we were playing 100+ games a year. The tournaments included Grangemouth, East of Scotland, West of Scotland, Hawick, Crowwood, Cathcart, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Hamilton, Glenrothes, Glasgow Montrose Open, Eastwood Allegro, Fair City Allegro, Bankton Allegro...

We used to have several one game a week tournaments in EK, Cathcart, Crowwood and Glagow Montrose but they have died out bar EK

None of them exist now

[Jonathan Livingstone]

Hi Robin

Again with respect it is not just the numbers of the established core weekenders, but the overall picture. This includes the local club situation. This is not a good situation, we are going to see many clubs fold in the coming years. Newly formed clubs are very rare in Scotland. More clubs have folded in the last 15yrs than have been formed by some way.

The Perth Congress you have highlighted was dormant for how many years? I don't think any new or recently revived congress can be seen as relevant until they have had 2-3 seasons in a row and become established. I am not sure that Perth and the newly formed Livingston congress are scheduled for the new season as things stand?

I do appreciate the positivity and glass half full perspective. I also recognise I clearly have a the glass is more than half empty view on this, but all the tangible data reflects that outlook. So many aspects of our game, be it smaller local clubs, weekend congresses, Richardsons/Spens are on borrowed time.

Andy post's is very reflective of where things are at. It also personal to me as I grew up in Livingston and that's my home town. I was with Bankton Chess Club from the start as a Junior and for many years. It was of course a fantastic junior club with fantastic support from those adults running it. I am in fact the only junior person from that club I am aware of still playing chess in Scotland (and that's after a 20yr chess break). And sadly if I was growing up in Livingston in 2016, there is no such opportunity to play chess in that very environment I benefited from.

The Ice Age is clearly here, I know Hamish sees and has mentioned hope before, there is always hope which I acknowledge. But for me its a very thin layer of hope.

[Alan Tate]

I wonder how many of the 2100+ rated players who see no issue with weekenders being FIDE rated are also putting in a 40+ hour working week?

Given that most of Scotland's young (under 30) 2100+ players are students and/or are working, I have my doubts about that.

If I may play devil's advocate, I wonder how many of those in favour are under 50 and not in decline...

[Phil Thomas]

[quote="Jonathan Livingstone"]

We all love our chess, but I don't really know how much more evidence we need before there is some country wide realisation that the game is doomed. Is like the Ice Age, it is happening, just not as obvious as you might think. The ice melted over time, and the chess boards are disappearing from the landscape too. So as a Glenrothes, Glasgow or Lothians disappear. We loose a Sabre Tooth Tiger, a Woolly Mammoth and a Plesiosaur.

2016-15, 2015/14, 2014/13 Season Congress Numbers displayed below

AYR - 95, 114, 117 * (*includes 7 for 1 day Junior event)
MARYMASS - 88, 78, 91
LARGS - 54, 44, 71* (* includes 10 for 1 day Junior event)
DUNDEE - 114, 134, 127
OBAN - 111, 100, 93
EDINBURGH - 171, 207, 188

End of selective quotation

Jonathan,

surely a better way to measure the decline or stability of organised chess in Scotland is to measure the number of games submitted for grading per season. I don't have the numbers to hand but Dougie probably does.

PS
The Plesiosaurs actually became extinct at the same time as the dinosaurs = 65 million years ago.

unless the Loch Ness monster is a plesiosaur

[Gary McPheator]

Firstly, I am looking forward to the new CS National Rapidplay. I am sure it will be an exciting and welcome addition to the chess calendar. I think I would prefer it to be held in Perth as Grangemouth is already used regularly for the Richardson/Spens finals and it is a bit more accessible for our North East players while still reasonable for us in the West. I am also looking forward to see if I can get as laughable a distance between my CS Allegro grade and a new Fide Rapid rating as I have managed to achieve with my main grades!

As an organiser who has recently decided to run a Fide event, I thought I would share my views on the subject. I have heard more people say they are in favour of Fide weekend tournaments than against and as we at Largs will only need a couple of entrants more for it to pay for itself we decided it was worth giving it a go. That isn't to say we should not take players concerns on board. It is incumbent on organisers to give players the best environment possible to play in, so it is up to us to find solutions to genuine concerns raised by players like Stephen if we want to make Fide weekenders work for all. Fide rating on its own is no panacea, but I think it may be essential for tournaments that want to attract players from beyond Scotland. If Fide events across the country are able to successfully achieve this in sufficient numbers it may well solve the problem raised by Alex with our players taking points off them instead of just ourselves.

With regards the general health of chess in Scotland, I don't believe it is all doom and gloom, numbers of players and games played went up last season, but I do think people are right to be concerned. Players of Andy's, Jonathan's and myself's generation remember how many tournaments there use to be, how many clubs use to play in the Richardson and Spens and even how many clubs and players there were when we were younger, and I am sure things were even better before that. I am hopeful that our directors will be bringing about initiatives that will indeed invigorate the game as Ian has said. I do think it will take something fundamental to change to achieve this. I think the grassroots i.e. the clubs and the congresses need a boost and to fund this I think we will need to do something controversial. i think we should use if not all at least the best part of the international budget to fund chess club initiatives and to boost the Grand Prix to aid our congresses. I would also like to see congresses levy a fee per entrant to help fund a reduced international program with international places being determined by a Ryder Cup like points system. This will mean that the congresses will benefit from stronger players needing to compete regularly on the home chess circuit and the stronger players benefit both by stronger competition and by getting more expenses paid to compete abroad for their country. And as the congress scene grows, more money is raised to fund more events for our internationalists.