Rules why bother if no harm

[donaldheron]

After my morning game at SNCL and my opponent had left I started to play a few moves- I would not have been long but a blue meanie arbiter pounced and said I was breaking FIDE rules. I asked who had complained, what harm (I was quiet)?  Rules are rules!  Maybe it is time to stop voting for FIDE rated tournaments.  I almost lost my jacket because of that arbiter - I was so upset.  If I had disturbed someone else then I would accept that I was wrong but no one was disturbed.  If we are going to be so strict then it should apply to organisers and arbiters as well - Blackpool does not comply with FIDE standard height of tables as I have pointed out to them. Rule 11.3.1 does not ban analysis after play but only during play on another board. Note that rule 12.2 © states that it is the arbiters duty to maintain a good playing environment and this has already been defined by FIDE to inclide table height, space betwwen tables and lighting etc.

[Glynis Grant]

Donald, both John  and Donald gave you a very extensive discussion on why it was unacceptable to do your analysis at a tournament board when other players were still playing. Rules are there to ensure the efficient and fair running of a tournament, please follow them.

Have a lovely Christmas and I will see you next year

Take care

GG

[donaldheron]

Donald, both John  and Donald gave you a very extensive discussion on why it was unacceptable to do your analysis at a tournament board when other players were still playing. Rules are there to ensure the efficient and fair running of a tournament, please follow them.

Have a lovely Christmas and I will see you next year

Take care

GG

Dear Glynis:  Thank you and I wish you and yours a good Christmas also.  I was hoping to get more replies to clarify if there is such a rule because I could not find it when I looked up both Chess Scotland and FIDE.  Both say that when the game is over then the players become spectators and that is that - nothing at all about analysing or what is meant by analysing.  I did discover that there are rules about minimum space between tables (1.5 metres) and minimum light requirements - I suppose that it is only fair that those who enforce rules should also keep them.

Wishing you well.  Don

[Ianbrownlee]

Hi Don from a fellow dragon and trainee arbiter
FIDE (arbiter's manual) " .. not specifically mentioned in the laws of chess"
article 11.2.1 defines the playing area please note the difference between playing area and playing venue

interesting one is 11.2.3.3
" a person who is neither a player nor arbiter (?) be allowed access to the playing area"
There is something somewhere i have read when a player completes his game he should leave the playing room asap but at the moment i cant find it. The arbiter also has a responsibility to check the boards and clocks prior to the next round and its a big ask for one or even two arbiters. There is an analysis room provided for what you were trying to do and the arbiter also has a responsibility in providing that. There is also the point that distraction could be created by attracting attention.
I know you wouldn't do this but an unscrupulous player could be making moves trying to signal a move or strategy which the arbiter has to also watch whilst other games are coming to a critical conclusion. Its not just because its a FIDE tournament, other tournaments require arbiters discretion in similar matters. Players, unless providing a function such as team captain duties should ideally leave the playing room unless they consciously make an effort not to attract attention, in short no talking, playing games, replaying games, reading books etc.
If a playing isn't playing games it is at the arbiters discretion whether he/she is even allowed to remain to watch other games. Whilst it may seem to be heavy handed to some, please remember the arbiter needs to be focused. I know, I have caused uproar on many occasions myself with my cohorts Tony Dunlop and Frankie Murray not realising the possible damage we could be doing.

I'm glad you agree that when a game finishes a player becomes a spectator, this is key. Spectators are only allowed in the playing area at the arbiters discretion therefore when the game (not match) is over then that player technically loses that right to be there. It is possible to have less than thirty minutes between rounds to check the boards and sets therefore you appreciate the difficulties arbiters face especially in the SNCL with so many games,

I have my copy of the arbiters manual Don if you wish to borrow it for reference. I hope this helps

PS merry Christmas to you all and a prosperous new year

[Alex McFarlane]

Donald,
The two Laws which cover this are either 11.3.1 or 11.4
11.4 states that players who finish their games are spectators.  If you are analysing a game then you are not a spectator.  I'm sure you would be unhappy if two people walked in off the street and sat down next to you and started playing a game, even if the were quiet.
11.3.1 bans analysis.  Technically it does say on another board but since your game has finished it is no longer your board and is effectively 'another' board.
The naming of the room as the 'playing area' might also give a clue as to which activities are allowed in it.  (11.2.2)
With regard to tables, lighting, space etc., if you read it carefully these are only regulations for FIDE's own tournaments.  They are recommendations for other events.  Indeed different table heights are given at different places in the FIDE handbook.
I hope this helps.

[donaldheron]

Donald,
The two Laws which cover this are either 11.3.1 or 11.4
11.4 states that players who finish their games are spectators.  If you are analysing a game then you are not a spectator.  I'm sure you would be unhappy if two people walked in off the street and sat down next to you and started playing a game, even if the were quiet.
11.3.1 bans analysis.  Technically it does say on another board but since your game has finished it is no longer your board and is effectively 'another' board.
The naming of the room as the 'playing area' might also give a clue as to which activities are allowed in it.  (11.2.2)
With regard to tables, lighting, space etc., if you read it carefully these are only regulations for FIDE's own tournaments.  They are recommendations for other events.  Indeed different table heights are given at different places in the FIDE handbook.
I hope this helps.

Thanks Alex:  Good reply.  I get the point about if a spectator sat down at a spare board and played some moves but the second point about banning analysis does not apply since I was not analysing - I played no new moves. therefore not analysis.  However point 1 is enough.  Yes it does help.  Don

---

Hi Don from a fellow dragon and trainee arbiter
FIDE  (arbiter's manual) " .. not specifically mentioned in the laws of chess"
article 11.2.1 defines the playing area please note the difference between playing area and playing venue

interesting one is 11.2.3.3
" a person who is neither a player nor arbiter (?)  be allowed access to the playing area"
There is something somewhere i have read when a player completes his game he should leave the playing room asap but at the moment i cant find it. The arbiter also has a responsibility to check the boards and clocks prior to the next round and its a big ask for one or even two arbiters. There is an analysis room provided for what you were trying to do and the arbiter also has a responsibility in providing that. There is also the point that distraction could be created by attracting attention.
I know you wouldn't do this but an unscrupulous player could be making moves trying to signal a move or strategy which the arbiter has to also watch whilst other games are coming to a critical conclusion. Its not just because its a FIDE tournament, other tournaments require arbiters discretion in similar matters. Players, unless providing a function such as team captain duties should ideally leave the playing room unless they consciously make an effort not to attract attention, in short no talking, playing games, replaying games, reading books etc.
If a playing isn't playing games it is at the arbiters discretion whether he/she is even allowed to remain to watch other games.  Whilst it may seem to be heavy handed to some, please remember the arbiter needs to be focused. I know, I have caused uproar on many occasions myself with my cohorts Tony Dunlop and Frankie Murray not realising the possible damage we could be doing.

I'm glad you agree that when a game finishes a player becomes a spectator, this is key. Spectators are only allowed in the playing area at the arbiters discretion therefore when the game (not match) is over then that player technically loses that right to be there. It is possible to have less than thirty minutes between rounds to check the boards and sets therefore you appreciate the difficulties arbiters face especially in the SNCL with so many games,

I have my copy of the arbiters manual Don if you wish to borrow it for reference. I hope this helps

PS merry Christmas to you all and a prosperous new year

Thanks very much and yes I would like to see the abiters manual.  Who knows what I might find there.  Don

[JMcNicoll]

The link to the arbiter manual is here. Enjoy.

[donaldheron]

The link to the arbiter manual is here. Enjoy.

Thanks very much.  I am pleasantly surprised to get a helpful reply from you.  I have checked it out on this particular issue but not discovered anything more so far.  I still think that there is no specific rule about playing over moves but the rule that states when you are finished you become a spectator and should leave the playing area covers it.  One thing that surprised me when I looked was that there is no rule about leaving your table when it is your turn to move - I always thought that was not allowed but it seems that the prohibition is on leaving the playing area.  Anyway, thanks again and have a good Christmas.  Don

[Glynis Grant]

Ah Jim what have you done! Donald will have the handbook memorised by the next SNCL heehee.

Donald there are only two rules you need to know in SNCL

1) Glynis Grant is in charge and her word is LAW

2)Repeat Rule 1 until you remember it!!

Have a lovely Christmas

Thanks very much to everyone who helped Donald with his queries. He's such a loveable character. I could just squeeze him to death!

[Ianbrownlee]

isnt that Mick Hanley's law