Continuation of AGM - motion 1.2

[seanmilton]

I seldom participate on this forum as rational debate often descends into political point scoring or the topic is high jacked to promote some unrelated personal agenda. As George Murphy has mentioned, this thread contains constructive dialogue and has raised some good challenges. In the hope that this continues, I will add my tuppence worth.
Because of the demographics of Scotland I envisage only around ten remote boards would be introduced into congress halls. One from each remote community such as Shetland, Orkney, Wick, Skye, Lewis, Islay etc and also for some members of our disabled community.

This is how I see it working:
Player A (in main congress hall) sits at a designated board where a volunteer will sit opposite with an internet connected device with chess.com (or similar) installed.

A mirrored set up will be in place for player B at the remote location.

Player A (if white) makes his move and presses the clock. Volunteer A relays the move via the internet and volunteer B, onto the remote board. Player B makes their move and the process is reversed but with Volunteer A pressing the clock at the main venue.

The game is played to its conclusion.

Arbitration: The qualified arbiter in the main congress hall will be the arbiter for both boards. The boards should be identical and both players recorded moves available. One written by player A and player B recorded electronically on Chess.com. e.g. if player B has an issue he will inform volunteer B who will write the query in the Chess.com message window. Volunteer A will Stop the clock if requested and raise his hand to bring the issue to the arbiters attention. The resolution will be communicated via the message window and the game will continue.

Security: Most lap top computers are now fitted with web cams. If one is placed at both locations then the players and arbiter will be able to observe the playing area and activity over the boards.

Clock: Only one official clock is in play and that is located on Player A's table. Player B may request a time check from volunteer B who will request an update via the Chess.com message window from Volunteer A. If the web cam option is adopted then player B will be able to view the official clock in real time.

Selection of remote players: The remote chess club will hold a club championship with the remote player place awarded as the prize. The ideal, and my ultimate goal is for each remote chess club to hold a mini congress in tandem with a CS event. The previous year's champion will play remotely at the venue while fellow club players compete at the same time and format as the main C.S event for the chance to play remotely at the next CS event. The winner of the remote mini congress will play the previous winner in a best of three (to be determined by club) graded club match before the next CS event. The winner will win the remote player place.

Volunteers: Most congress halls are attended by chess playing parents of juniors. I believe this is a resource that can be used to man the boards. The chess knowledge required is pretty low as the volunteer will only be replicating the moves made by the players. The volunteer position can be done in relays if more than one person is available.

Ground rules: The committee will have to consider the unique elements of remote play and set ground rules to suit. A couple to consider would be:
The number of remote boards will be dictated in advance by the tournament organiser based on internet availability and available volunteers. The appropriate CS director will allocate in the fairest manner the remote boards to the most deserving players. The tournament organiser would have the power to limit the number of remote boards if they felt the quantity would have a detrimental effect on the main tournament.

If disability or access problems prevents a player from attending a venue then relaxation of the rules may be applied at the CS directors discretion to allow the player to play unsupervised from their home.

~300 million players play internet games successfully. The technology is proven and as long as the internet connection is secure and the lights stay on it should not disrupt games during a tournament. (Shetland boasts the fastest fibre optic broadband network in the UK). However a ruling should still be in place to cover such an event should it occur.

[Mike Scott]

Sean,
The problem I see with manual relaying of moves is that it takes time and that time will both accumulate against the remote player B and could, in the event of a time scramble, cause a loss on time. The former can be allowed for by allowing the remote player extra time per move but not sure how you can deal with the latter.

Obviously the remote player may simply agree to accept this disadvantage given all the benefits of playing remotely.

With normal on-line chess both sets of boards and clocks are linked and updated automatically thereby minimizing the delays and neither player is in a privileged position.

[Phil Thomas]

My recollection of the Bedfordshire -Cornwall match - that Jacqui mentioned a few days ago - is that each players made moves on a real board and his/her time was recorded on the clock next to his board.

Much much better than the remote player suffering lost time through transmission delays.

The whole match was guided (again working from long term memory only) by a set of published rules written specifically for telephone matches.

What the sub committee is really trying to do is to decide how to upgrade those rules to cope with more advanced technology than the humble telephone. Which includes the real possibility of powerful chess engines being used out of sight of the opponent.

[seanmilton]

Mike, Thanks for the good challenges.
The technology is there to play over the internet with a clock and works well even for blitz games. I am mindful however that not everyone likes to play on a computer and I wish to retain as much of the playing live experience as possible. I have tried to model the proposal to something similar to playing games against players using a braille board. This is already accepted practice in congress halls. The only difference the player in the congress hall will notice compared to a typical congress game is that the player opposite will record moves on an Ipad instead of noting on a score sheet.
The remote player will be disadvantaged by the clock and the issue will I am sure be debate at length by the working party. The involvement of two intermediate bodies are the greatest challenge and the area that will require the greatest scrutiny. e.g.What if one of the volunteers misses a move and allows the clock to run on?
Sometimes life is unfair and the remote player may have to decide if the time control inconvenience is greater than the travel and time required to participate at the main venue.
As time goes by and if remote play becomes the norm in the congress environment it may be agreed to play remote games directly between two players computer to computer. I hope the phantom boards shown on the motions YouTube clip come first though. =)

[Matthew Turner]

Phil Thomas wrote
"What the sub committee is really trying to do is to decide how to upgrade those rules to cope with more advanced technology than the humble telephone. Which includes the real possibility of powerful chess engines being used out of sight of the opponent."

but I wonder how much of an issue this actually is? Let me pose you a question. You play in a 5 round tournament and one of your games is against a player playing remotely. Do you think there is more chance that the remote player will cheat by using a powerful engine or that one of the other four will nip to the toilet and use the app on their smart phone?

[amuir]

I am not keen on playing a graded game against a remote player. I had a bad experience playing a telephone match in the Sunday Times Schools tournament and I retired from postal chess when computers were starting to make a difference to analysis.

[IMarks]

Well thought out comments, Sean.

300 million players play internet games successfully. The technology is proven and as long as the internet connection is secure and the lights stay on it should not disrupt games during a tournament.

My main concern is that 'remote' participation would end up as something akin to a glorified game on ICC. 300,000,000 people blitzing away online doesn't equate to two guys playing an 'over-the-board' (!?) game in a weekender via skype or whatever.

Also, as I said in an earlier post, I regard f2f contact as a main component of tournament chess. An opponent's body language, demeanour, reactions etc. play a large part in the game. Watching the other guy on a computer screen, if indeed an image is broadcast, just ain't the same. Mind you, it would get round personal hygiene problems!

[David G Congalton]

My thinking has been along similar lines to Sean, although I confess I was looking at a single satellite site to a congress and participation from one club or area to begin with.

The expenses of a remote arbiter could then be split between the remote participants.

The question for me was whether such games would be eligible for grading and if so, what rules and support would need to be in place at both ends to legitimise the games for grading purposes.

Ultimately it will be down to event organisers as to whether they embrace the concept or not, although I can see the possibility of new additions to the calendar, possibly in the more remote locations, should such an idea be given Chess Scotland support.

[Ianbrownlee]

Sean mentioned chess.com which I use. I personally think a time scramble would cause issues unless when it comes to a remote player I don't see the issue playing the entire game on chess.com , simplifying the technology and the solution. If we use chess.com as an example, we could play multiple games on a chess website at both ends. It would also eliminate the need of a remote arbiter/volunteer to make decisions delegating disputes to the local arbiter. The cost of setting this up would be miniscule compared to other solutions and would be a great advert for chess Scotland if publicised through the media.

Going a stage further, couldn't we get organise schools to participate in inter-school tournaments etc by using the Internet. Schools would love this especially if games got international with other countries... Hang on, I'm getting carried away with this....

Get return for low input , and organised nationally with the Chess Scotland badge on it..... This could be great fun

[David G Congalton]

Going a stage further, couldn't we get organise schools to participate in inter-school tournaments etc by using the Internet. Schools would love this especially if games got international with other countries... Hang on, I'm getting carried away with this....

Get return for low input , and organised nationally with the Chess Scotland badge on it..... This could be great fun

With a national over the board finals day?