Council meeting

[Patrick McGovern]

would there be merit in having Juniors only grading system? could be cheaper and self beneficial. run effectively by interested parties

[Patrick McGovern]

Phil;

It would never happen of course unless, perhaps, Chess Scotland were to acquire substantial grant funding.
That's not part of our business model.

when you say "our" who do you mean? I know you are currently a member of Chess Scotland, so are you talking from that standpoint or that of SJC, am unsure of your status (if any) in that organisation.

[Phil Thomas]

Phil;

It would never happen of course unless, perhaps, Chess Scotland were to acquire substantial grant funding.
That's not part of our business model.

when you say "our" who do you mean? I know you are currently a member of Chess Scotland, so are you talking from that standpoint or that of SJC, am unsure of your status (if any) in that organisation.

As I said earlier

I can't speak for others junior organisations but SJC are run on a sound (and non funded) business model.
Given our pool of highly skilled and experienced arbiters and controllers who don't take expenses and today's typical (for us) venue costs the correct fee really is around £7 a head.

Seems clear enough to me.

Lets get the thread back onto topic.

[David Deary]

Dear all,

First off, these figures are proposed fees and there will be a debate held on them at Council as is appropriate. I also think it’s a debate that needs to happen, a lot of the points made on here I actually share but I’ll go into that in more detail at the Council meeting on Sunday.

Having spoken to David Congalton, the Finance Director (and I would direct anyone else with queries regarding this proposal to do the same) I now understand the proposed fees. I know David has a match tonight so may not be able to post on here until later in the week but I am quite sure he will respond to anyone who emails their questions to him.

The eagle eyed amongst you who checked the proposed budgets will have no doubt noticed there is no big increase in income from junior grading. How can this be? For a while now there has been a discussion relating to what’s in it for junior organisations to affiliate to Chess Scotland. Well, for a long time junior games played by those aged 14 and under have not paid for grading, this is a service provided by Chess Scotland at no cost to the junior organisers.

The proposal as I now understand it, although admittedly it may not be very clear is that these proposed fees would be waived for junior organisations that affiliated to Chess Scotland at an annual cost of £40. I believe Lothian Junior Chess are already affiliated to Chess Scotland and thus these proposed fees would not impact them.

Hopefully this clears up some of the confusion on this thread, I am happy to answer any queries and ready to be corrected by one of the other Directors/Council Members if I have misunderstood the proposal.

Looking ahead, the Home Junior Board is to hold its first meeting following the Chess Scotland Council meeting and I believe this is an appropriate subject to discuss with those representatives from the junior organisations on the board. For any organisations who are not currently represented but would like to be involved in the board please feel free to contact me by email, my details can be found on the CS Contacts list on the Chess Scotland website.

Best regards,

David Deary
Home Junior Director
Chess Scotland

[Derek Howie]

Become an affiliate or we will charge you for grading your games? Come across as blackmail.

SJC has ran CS events for many years without taking a charge. Perhaps CS would need to become an affiliate of SJC at a cost of, say £40, for it to consider doing so in future?

It sounds as if you, as HJD are in favour of this, David?

My biggest concerns about this still remain in school chess where there are kids coming along to play who pay nothing, and in many cases either can't afford to pay anything or wouldn't come along if there was a charge. Are we now saying that they can't have graded games?

[David Deary]

Derek,

Your second paragraph sounds a little like what you suggested in you first sentence. Fundamentally, I believe this is a debate that CS needs to have along with the debate around compulsory membership.

You asked for my view:
Am I in favour of all scottish junior organisations being affiliated to CS? Yes, definitely, I would hope that all junior organisations see it is a mutually beneficial arrangement. Part of my efforts this year has been talking to all junior organisations to try and get them on-board. For instance, I have spoken to NEJCA and they reserve their position until more details are available on this proposal and the matter has been discussed at the Home Junior Board.

Am I in favour of junior games being charged for grading? Yes, I am of the view there should be a nominal amount per player per game charged. As the grading system is a service provided by CS, I think this view is fairly universal amongst players and organisers in Scotland but I could be wrong.

As I also mentioned yesterday I share a lot of the views on here. I share your fear wrt to schools chess and spoke to a coach who goes into a primary school and teaches on this subject last night. My view is that if the regional league/association is affiliated then schools within that catchment area should be covered by the affiliation of the regional body. My view is that the council proposal should be passed to the Home Junior Board for further consideration however the others on council may not agree with me.

Edit: I will be unavailble until after 5pm today but hopefully this post clears up my position and the view I am taking on Sunday.

[Matthew Turner]

There are really three attitudes that you can take towards juniors paying for grading

1. It is all very beneficial for junior games to be graded and we want juniors to be excited by having a grade, so lets make it free.
2. Juniors are an important part of the chess community, in tight financial conditions junior should pay their way. There is really no reason why they should get a free ride.
3. There is a compromise let juniors pay a little then they will be more of a stakeholder in ChessScotland and paying, even a little, will make their grading more 'valuable'.

Option 3 often appears to be attractive, but I would be really wary of it. Think about how much these proposals are going to raise - are they worth it? David seems to be suggesting that a junior organisation can affiliate to ChessScotland and get all their games graded for free. Does this mean that the UK Chess Challenge could affiliate? You could end up with a lot of fairly silly games being graded and a lot of extra work being created, and for £40?

Please don't imagine that option 2 will signal the end of junior chess in some way. Michael Hanley will not stop organising his junior events because CS are charging for grading - he will find a pragmatic solution. Maybe he will simply grade the games himself and the players will have a Hamilton Junior grade. That is not a problem or a challenge to CS. You start out with a regional grade then as you progress you get a national rating. Why is that a problem? As adults we accept that as the case with national and International ratings.

If you go for option 1 then if juniors pay less then adults pay more. It is often assumed that adults will resent this. However, I really have seen very little evidence for this. In my experience, if you outline how you will spend money for the general good then the membership will support you.

[Alex Gillies]

Is it just me or is this getting all too political again?

In seems fair to raise the subject of charging juniors U14, especially if its a minimal/nominal amount as appears to be suggested - however with such a fundamental change its clearly likely to antagonise SJC and perhaps others rather than raise any significant revenue (£40 here or there?) Also I have to wonder why now and why wasn't it raised at last years AGM or left for this years?

I think its time we looked at a customer services director tasked with uniting SJC and SC. volunteers anyone? full combat uniform provided.

[Ianbrownlee]

I agree Alex with the Customer Services Director post. Indeed I made it known I would be happy to put my name forward with the focus being to sort out the political mess between political factions and to try and reinvigorate the links between Chess Scotland and outside authorities e.g. secondary schools. My concern is that the kids will suffer if this isn't sorted out using the magic words reconciliation and compromise. However in speaking to several people I gather the consensus is that the Customer Services Director is a redundant post and should be dropped.

However, I must stress that unless something constructive is done and done quickly, then we have a real danger of chess in Scotland becoming damaged beyond repair. Perhaps someone on some sort of authority has to deal with this as a high level or urgency. There are too many people rattling other people's cages for the sake of it.

I should also say that if you think we have problems, then you should look at our friends over the border. The grass is certainly not greener down there. Surely we should rescue the situation while we still can

[Jacqui Thomas]

What benefit would it be to affiliate ? I cant see any, so looking forward to being enlightened