Council meeting

[Mike Scott]

Apologies but not read the whole thread so if I may repeat what someone has already said. I would argue for affiliation of organizers like LJC, SJC & NEJCA to CS because I believe it is important that firstly there is a national body and that the stake holders are fully engaged with it. A financial commitment is a great way to ensure engagement.

With regards the charging for junior grading I am caught he between an instant reaction against yet on the other hand I do think that if having a grade is something the juniors respond to and value it is not unreasonable - in this time of financial constraints - that CS derives financial benefit from it. The question in my mind is how is that best done?

I would listen to MH on the possible impact on his events and efforts to ensure that a fixed rate for game does not make mass participation events impractical. Perhaps affiliates can claim volume based discounts?

I would also like to see a clear plan for how monies raised is to be spent. If it was to go towards supporting junior chess in someway then fine, if it goes towards subsidizing elite adult chess then forget it. Worse still is if there is no plan and it just disappears into the budget.

[Andrew McHarg]

...but we need to remember it is the parents who are paying for their chess.

Most parents who see their children enjoying Chess (along with the many other benefits of playing) will not resist spending additional money if that's what's needed to keep it going. Parents know that the activities their children undertake are going to cost them money, but that doesn't stop them spending that money.

And I think people forget that compared to other activities, Chess is not expensive. If your child has some horseriding lessons; learns the piano; and likes to go skiing then the comparative cost of Chess is barely even noteworthy.

[Linda McCusker]

...but we need to remember it is the parents who are paying for their chess.

Most parents who see their children enjoying Chess (along with the many other benefits of playing) will not resist spending additional money if that's what's needed to keep it going. Parents know that the activities their children undertake are going to cost them money, but that doesn't stop them spending that money.

And I think people forget that compared to other activities, Chess is not expensive. If your child has some horseriding lessons; learns the piano; and likes to go skiing then the comparative cost of Chess is barely even noteworthy.

Sorry Andrew I would disagree with you on the above point. I would not like to add up the costs Involved when Andrew and Kirsty were playing chess and we were travelling all over the country to play in congresses. Add this to the costs when they were playing for Scotland in international events. There was no subsidy at all during 2012/2013 to help out with junior costs - not that I was expecting financial handouts from CS but even a contibution towards registration fees would have helped a little.

On the plus side of course both Andrew and Kirsty received enormous benefits from meeting and playing junior chess players from all over the world. Can a cost be attached to that? Of course not :-)

[robin moore]

ChessScotland up till now have spent a hefty chunk of their budget in supporting juniors at international events including in 2012/2013. The support has mostly been in the form of providing a head of delegation and coaches.

With the current financial climate, there must be a very strong chance that those days are in the past.

We could of course consider going down the route of the English Chess Federation. Here is a link to their junior selection policy.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/play-for-england/junior-selection-policy/">http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/play ... on-policy/</a><!-- m -->

If you scroll down to coaching, you will see that all coaching costs (fees, flights, accommodation, transfers, tuition etc) are paid for solely by parents.

[Derek Howie]

...but we need to remember it is the parents who are paying for their chess.

Most parents who see their children enjoying Chess (along with the many other benefits of playing) will not resist spending additional money if that's what's needed to keep it going. Parents know that the activities their children undertake are going to cost them money, but that doesn't stop them spending that money.

That MAY be fine for some parents who take their kids along to weekend competitions but not necessarily school competitions. It's hard enough to get kids along to school chess clubs without imposing costs where none exist for any graded games that they may have, particularly in poorer areas.

What's also crazy is that the current fee proposal is that a junior under-300 playing in their first tournament is going to be charged 25p/game for a 25 minute game whereas adults in a 25 minute allegro only get charged 20p/game.

[Linda McCusker]

...but we need to remember it is the parents who are paying for their chess.

Most parents who see their children enjoying Chess (along with the many other benefits of playing) will not resist spending additional money if that's what's needed to keep it going. Parents know that the activities their children undertake are going to cost them money, but that doesn't stop them spending that money.

That MAY be fine for some parents who take their kids along to weekend competitions but not necessarily school competitions. It's hard enough to get kids along to school chess clubs without imposing costs where none exist for any graded games that they may have, particularly in poorer areas.

What's also crazy is that the current fee proposal is that a junior under-300 playing in their first tournament is going to be charged 25p/game for a 25 minute game whereas adults in a 25 minute allegro only get charged 20p/game.

Crazy indeed!!! It looks like any interschool competitions between the feeder primaries for my school club will not include games being graded as we certainly could not afford to pay 25p a game. The proposal that juniors at this level should pay more than adults in an allegro is, in my opinion, ill conceived.

[David G Congalton]

I would like to see some sort of nominal value put on the grading of junior events in an official way. This would be useful for a few reasons, including applications for funding junior events where a cost breakdown is required.

By introducing junior grading fees to the list of fees, I would perhaps be opening the door to free or reduced rate junior grading being one of the benefits of affiliation to Chess Scotland. However, I would consider this to be a matter for discussion by the junior board.

No income from junior fees is included in the proposed budget for 2014-15.

It is not my intention to actually charge these junior fees in the coming season (2014-15) but I would like to see the discussion take place and an amount included in the fees list. Essentially all fees would be waived.

[Andrew McHarg]

Linda; I think that's a pretty exceptional case. Most juniors never play in international events, and very few actively travel to congresses around the country. For the majority, Chess is something they do at a very local level, where the costs are low. =)

Derek; I wasn't aware the 25p went as far as becoming a "proposal"? I was under the impression it was merely a suggested starting point for discussion, after which a proposal would be created (if the discussion went beyond a discussion). However, I entirely agree that it would be too high, and I do share your concerns regarding putting kids off attending their school clubs. That's why I think it would be a good idea to have safeguards in place (particularly in social priority areas) to ensure the costs involved with playing Chess are not preventing it from being played. So, for instance, ensuring players who are new to the game or below a certain age are not charged fees.

But I also think we have to be realistic about the situation we find ourselves in. It's a hard and irritating fact that money is a major problem for CS, and we'd certainly all benefit if we had more of it available. If some additional funds can be generated from some junior graded games without pushing juniors away from playing then it's an avenue we should consider. However, we do also need to ensure that it's worthwhile from a practical point of view. There's no point in introducing a system that generates a small amount of money if the time required to manage it will be disproportionately large. And as Mike says, I think if such a system was implemented then there should be a plan in place for where that money will go.

I would strongly urge some of the SJC guys to take up David's invitation to be involved in the discussions. And in particular I would also urge you not to jump to conclusions about how this will go and what the motives are, as David (and others) have been entirely clear that this is only a discussion, and that even if it did turn into an action plan it would not be implemented in the near future.

[Phil Thomas]

Phil, Derek,

I don't believe I can be any clearer, my proposal is that the HJB discuss how affiliation would work in practical terms and what the benefits are etc.

The first meeting is on the 28 March @ 19:15 via Skype, you are welcome to attend, SJC were invited onto the HJB and that invite still stands. That is the correct 'forum' to engage in, in this instance. Alternatively, if you don't wish to join the meeting, you can email me prior to the HJB meeting with concerns or issues and these will be considered. Following the HJB's discussions I will contact you to keep you aprised of developments.

I don't think it would be fair for me to be drawn into predetermining that discussion of the HJB and as such I won't be adding anything further.

Also Phil,

I think it was a very nice gesture by SJC to donate the boards, sets and clocks to junior clubs. I'm happy to put on record the gratitude that CS has to SJC and the other junior organisations, leagues and associations who also do this to encourage chess at the grass roots level. To my recollection, I don't believe this has been acknowledged by any previous Junior Director but I agree with you and believe it is something that should be put right.

As an example, this year in Ayrshire, the Ayrshire Chess Association donated new boards and sets to kick start chess on Arran coupled with our policy of getting boards and sets into primary schools across Ayrshire. This is part of the ACA's policy of supporting and encouraging chess throughout Ayrshire and we have requested funding from CS in the past and it was never forthcoming even when CS had the income from the grant. From memory, I believe you were a Director at this time so with the loss of the grant I find it surprising that you now imply that CS would be in a position to fund such activities. ;-)

David,
Thank you for your kind words about the SJC donations. Let me say that I feel the same way about the ACA donations to Ayrshire/ Arran.

However, both sets of donations were made, I presume, totally independently of Chess Scotland personnel. Would affiliation or not of ACA to Chess Scotland have made any difference?

Was I a director of CS at the time of the ACA request for support? Actually I don't know. I was the IJD from 2008 and 2011 - you have not actually put a date to the request. The requests for financial assistance did not reach me. But if they had it would have been difficult for me to fund grass roots chess from an international budget. I suspect that the dates don't overlap with Jacqui's time as a CS director. Her budget would have been easier to spend for the purpose you outlined. In a typical year if I recall correctly around £1,000 was allocated to the Schools Development Director which was usually not spent by the end of the season. I do, of course, know that things may be different now.

On a related topic

Robin elsewhere states that up to now
"Chess Scotland up till now have spent a hefty chunk of their budget in supporting juniors at international events including in 2012/2013. The support has mostly been in the form of providing a head of delegation and coaches".

For the record
(a) Robin is not in a position to make statements or intimations about how I spent my budget.
(b) In my time as IJD hefty chunks of the budget were spent subsidising costs to the families of attending overseas events.
© Indications are that this practice ceased when I stepped down in 2011.

Between 2008 and 2011 I was doing both the IJD workload and a hefty SJC workload.
After 3 years of that I opted to reduce my input to SJC only.
Plus playing - this year is an exceptionally active playing season for me.
PS don't tell Joe I'm now only 3.5 points behind in the grand prix.
Plus some adult arbiting such as Glenrothes and SNCL later this month.

I don't see any driving need, on a personal basis, for joining the Junior Board.
It would inevitably reduce my time for non chess leisure activities.
I don't see the need for my input at this point - after all the three junior directorships were filled at the agm 7 months ago.

[robin moore]

Phil,

You stepped down from the IJD role in 2011. Please can you explain what you mean by...

For the record
(a) Robin is not in a position to make statements or intimations about how I spent my budget.