Grandparents rule

[Andy Howie]

To answer a question, no it is not against FIDE rules, I know of quite a few federations with this rule.

Secondly, at the AGM we voted to allow Matthew to transfer. We could end up with the ludicrous situation where according to FIDE he is eligible to play for Scotland (it is either Jan 2013 or 2014, I can't remember off the top of my head) but according to our rules he can't. We cannot keep the status quo because of this.

[amuir]

There is nothing ludicrous in life.
Matthew could be SCO in order to play in international tournaments and keep his rating but not play in the Olympiad.

[David Deary]

Personally I think we should trust the wisdom of the selectors.

That is the body of people appointed to everything into account and who should routinely consider the merits of every paid up member who satisfies all the qualification rules.

Changing the rules to an alternative acceptable version seems OK to me.

Personally I moved to Scotland in 2003. I was an economic migrant.
Had I been good enough to be playing another country at time would it have been correct for me to be forced to stop playing for them ?

Phil these proposed rules are not acceptable to me and many other Chess Scotland members. As I highlighted you could have a player living in Switzerland (most neutral country I can think of!), born in Switzerland whose Grandmother was born in Scotland 80 years ago playing for Scotland. I cannot endorse a situation where this could occur. Also I don’t have enough faith that the selectors won’t change and their view on this wont change and then we have a team of ringers representing Scotland. No thanks!

To answer a question, no it is not against FIDE rules, I know of quite a few federations with this rule.

Secondly, at the AGM we voted to allow Matthew to transfer. We could end up with the ludicrous situation where according to FIDE he is eligible to play for Scotland (it is either Jan 2013 or 2014, I can't remember off the top of my head) but according to our rules he can't. We cannot keep the status quo because of this.

Andy, I hope you are going to provide evidence from FIDE with this effect at the SGM?
Also, our AGMs are hardly the most representative. They are the best we’ve got but I wouldn’t champion that the AGM voted for this and that. The AGM also made a commitment to hold an SGM within 3 months and I think we’ve exceeded that timetable twice over!

There is nothing ludicrous in life.
Matthew could be SCO in order to play in international tournaments and keep his rating but not play in the Olympiad.

Totally agree Andy! This issue should not be personalised, Matthew is a great guy and I have seen first hand his commitments to Scottish juniors. However, this is a fundamental change to the rules to represent this country at the highest level and Matthew's situation is a seperate issue.

[Craig Pritchett]

It might help if someone (preferably the proposers) set out the actual current FIDE rule(s) for representing FIDE member countries, so we can all judge whether it either appears that their proposed introduction of a "grandparent" rule is within the rules (including its spirit) or not.

ALL FIDE members should abide by the rules, which may indicate a degree of latitude to vary individual terms from country to country, although I can't believe that there is much, if any, such latitude to vary at all - as all countries really ought to be subject to a level playing field in such important events as the Olympiad.

I note from the above that Scotland (now) endorses a 1 year (juniors) and 2 years (adult) residency qualification for non-Scots by "birth". I think that's a good arrangement ... and I assume that that is a universal FIDE rule (if not I'd be keen to find out).

I still don't spy any universally applicable FIDE "grand-parental" rule on the horizon ... but if there really are "an odd few" FIDE members who already apply such rule, it would be helpful if the proposers could say who they are, what their actual "grand-parental" rule involves and most importantly how they squared it with FIDE... maybe they shouldn't have done it at all and are simply getting away with it ... to the detriment of other FIDE members ... that's chaos.

[Alex McFarlane]

Craig,

I have searched the FIDE Handbook and its site without finding any definition of nationality.

The two year rule was initially brought in to tie in with the then FIDE regulations on changing nationality.

As far as I am aware your nationality in FIDE terms is whatever you declare when getting your first (partial) rating. If your first rating appears with the wrong nationality (a very common occurrence) then it can be changed for no cost. Any other change of nationality incurs a cost. This cost varies depending on the strength of the player and how quickly the player wishes full recognition. There is a fee payable to the previous country that the player was affiliated to if it wishes it.
To balance this out a country is allowed to 'deregister' a player. In the past this was used when someone appeared on the list and was unknown in their designated country. Indeed this method helped to spot a rating scam when fictitious players appeared on the list. More recently it has been used by England to 'punish' players who were not members.

In FIDE terms I don't think you have a nationality as we know it more a country you are registered with.

[Douglas Bryson]

FIDE do not indicate what constitutes "citizenship" of any state. Presumably that would be because each state may have its own rules. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook?id=19&view=category">http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook?id=19&view=category</a><!-- m -->

Since England and Scotland are not separate independent countries none of us have citizenship of anything other than the British state. This means that the grandparent rule is actually irrelevant. Anyone in the UK could play for Scotland on the grounds of citizenship.

That would hardly be practical so home nation sporting organisations like football have developed their own rules and agreed policy on how they would operate national eligibility. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules#Home_nations_agreement">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligi ... _agreement</a><!-- m -->

Have any such discussions ever taken place with the ECF with regard to eligibility?

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UK Census do not record things like grandparent birthplace so it would only be possible to guess at Scots ancestry. However the Irish estimate that there are 6 million people in the UK who have an Irish grandparent. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_migration_to_Great_Britain">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_migr ... at_Britain</a><!-- m -->

I would guess a fairly high percentage of the UK chess population would be eligible for Scotland on that basis if they did a family tree search.

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Alan Tate amended his residency only rule. Otherwise our top two players and others would now not be eligible.

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Phil Thomas - trust the selectors - is that really such a good idea? Much better if you have published guidelines rather than human whims.

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The AGM was quite difficult to vote against Matthew Turner since he had actually made the effort to turn up - quite a rare occurrence.

Perhaps the halfway house of grandparent gets you on the FIDE list as SCO but you must choose to reside here before you can play is the way to go.

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On a lighter note....<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamBack/Eligibiliy.html">http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Te ... biliy.html</a><!-- m -->

The concept of national team eligibility continues to elude some fans. Take this exchange, for example, on TalkSPORT’s Scottish phone-in when goalkeeper Antii Niemi still played for Hearts (borrowed from Jason Burt’s “The Sweeper” column in The Independent, 1 January 2003):

“Caller: I'm a Hearts fan and, fair enough, Stephen Pressley gets a game for Scotland but what I can't understand is why [national coach Berti] Vogts never picks Antii Niemi.

“Host (former footballer Arthur Albiston): Eh? Sorry?

“Caller: Why does he never pick Antii Niemi for Scotland?

“Host: It's because he's Finnish.

“Caller: What?

“Host: Antii Niemi is Finnish.

“By now enraged caller: He's not Finnish! He's only 28!”

[Phil Thomas]

Selective quote from David Deary

and then we have a team of ringers representing Scotland. No thanks!


Are there any plans to extend this principle to the Ayrshire league ??

[David Deary]

Perhaps the halfway house of grandparent gets you on the FIDE list as SCO but you must choose to reside here before you can play is the way to go.

I would vote for that Dougie.
However, in its current form I plan on voting against at the SGM and rallying as much support for voting the proposal down as I can.

Selective quote from David Deary
and then we have a team of ringers representing Scotland. No thanks!
Are there any plans to extend this principle to the Ayrshire league ??

No comment (for obvious reasons) ;P
I think I've still got a copy of Mike Hanley's "Guide to Ringers" somewhere.

[Alan Jelfs]

So has anyone checked the ancestry of the following players yet?

Neil McDonald GM
Luke McShane GM
Vincent McCambridge IM

[Craig Pritchett]

Thanks to Alex McFarlane ... who's confirmed that FIDE are extraordinarily lax in this area. Unlike FIFA, who are very hands on in trying to manage a level representative playing field in football, including on their ruling on a grandparent rule (thanks to Douglas Bryson for this + light notes, various). As, I am tempted to add, an international sports org should be!

So CS probably doesn't need a grandparent rule at all to allow Matthew to play in a Scottish representative team. It only needs him to be registered for rating purposes with CS and for the bit in his FIDE transfer note saying from what date he can play for SCO rather than his native ENG (though why they conflate the two different things is beyond logic ... in my view).

I think I agree with Douglas and several others above. No grandparent rule. No change. No case made. If Matthew (who's case is probably unique anyway) wishes to be considered for SCO teams, he should not only be registered SCO for rating purposes but be resident in SCO (like others ENG native in the present and past, such as Andrew Greet, Nick Young, Brian Denman, David Levy ...) for what is nowadays a requisite 2 years.

I don't even think that Matthew (who's general commitment to chess and to Scottish chess, I also greatly admire, by the way) would be unhappy at this. As far as I understand it, his only real problem all along has been with the ECF and their policy of deregistration of all ENG players for rating purposes who (like him) didn't want to be paid up ECF members.

Alex McFarlane hinted that that ECF policy may amount to more or less unwarranted "punishment". But with the best will in the world, CS can't be responsible for righting any perceived wrongs by native Englishmen with their national federation. That's really a concern for arbitration between the individual, their federation and FIDE.