Grandparents rule

[Gary McPheator]

I cannot see any good reason that anyone can have for opposing such a change in the rules. As has been said by others, there should be no problems with FIDE with adopting this eligibility criteria. Are we really worried that selectors are going to start flying in ringers from around the globe?

I have some sympathy with those wanting players that represent the country putting something back into chess in Scotland, but that surely should be criteria that all players should meet, not just those that will only qualify by grandparentage.

I hope Matthew doesn't feel uncomfortable with the discussion of this topic.

[David Deary]

Gary I have listed several reasons for voting against this proposal as have others. Read the whole topic. (I'm assuming you haven't read it as there are numerous reasons)

There is no need to change the eligibility criteria at all as has been proven on this thread already.
Fundamentally I dont believe you can justify playing for a country that one of your grandparents was born in over 80 years ago. I certainly wouldnt push to play for that country if I was in that situation. I actually find it offensive that anyone would try to.

Why dont we just stop investing in junior chess in Scotland to bring young players through to play for their country and channel the funds into finders fees to recruit some of the 1300+ GMs in the world with the slightest scottish ancestry to play for Scotland. I know its somewhat extreme but hey if the rules allow it lets do it... :\

[Alan Tate]

Alan Tate amended his residency only rule. Otherwise our top two players and others would now not be eligible

Indeed, I hope it is clear now what I meant.

Perhaps the halfway house of grandparent gets you on the FIDE list as SCO but you must choose to reside here before you can play is the way to go.

I also like the sound of this. It makes a lot of sense.

[Douglas Bryson]

So has anyone checked the ancestry of the following players yet?

Neil McDonald GM
Luke McShane GM
Vincent McCambridge IM

Great news - Luke has the relevant granny or grandpa. We'll soon be a Scot free team - a medal beckons....

Scotsman 2001-04-10 <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.scr-kuppenheim.de/heco/ar0104.html">http://www.scr-kuppenheim.de/heco/ar0104.html</a><!-- m -->
PRESSURES of work prevented millionaire businessman Terry Chapman making the trip north to get in a bit of last-minute match practice before his intriguing handicapped match later this month with Garry Kasparov.

Chapman unfortunately had to make a late withdrawal from Scotland's top weekend tournament, the Edinburgh Congress, and instead now has to rely on an intense, weeklong training camp this week with the likes of top British GMs Jon Speelman, John Nunn and Julian Hodgson to better prepare himself for his charity match against the world number one.

In addition to being the sponsors of the annual tournament Grand Prix circuit in the UK, The Terence Chapman Group last year also initiated (albeit only for English juniors) a new award scheme for juniors. At least the latest recipient of this year's gold medal and 1,000(UK) prize, 17-year-old GM Luke McShane, sounds Scottish (and does have a Scottish grandparent)!

[Gary McPheator]

Gary I have listed several reasons for voting against this proposal as have others. Read the whole topic. (I'm assuming you haven't read it as there are numerous reasons)

There is no need to change the eligibility criteria at all as has been proven on this thread already.
Fundamentally I dont believe you can justify playing for a country that one of your grandparents was born in over 80 years ago. I certainly wouldnt push to play for that country if I was in that situation. I actually find it offensive that anyone would try to.

Why dont we just stop investing in junior chess in Scotland to bring young players through to play for their country and channel the funds into finders fees to recruit some of the 1300+ GMs in the world with the slightest scottish ancestry to play for Scotland. I know its somewhat extreme but hey if the rules allow it lets do it... :\

I know there are reasons why, David, I just don't find them good ones!

I too wouldn't want to represent any country other than that of my birth, most people don't. But I fail to see what is so inherently wrong with someone choosing to or being allowed to do so.

Now tell me more of this plan to take money away from Junior Chess......

[Hugh Brechin]

But I fail to see what is so inherently wrong with someone choosing to or being allowed to do so.

Well, there's nothing wrong with it per se. Wanting to play high-level international chess is an entirely natural impulse. From what I've heard from those who've been there, Olympiads are great fun. But do you not see the argument being made by various people that those who want to play for Scotland should be in some sense part of the Scottish chess scene? A grandparent's birthplace doesn't necessarily carry with it any real affinity: my gran was born in what is now Malawi (given that her parents were I think from Coatbridge, I appreciate that it's not a perfect parallel). I have never been there and have no real connection to the country. Judging from the team they fielded in 2010, I would have at least a shot at getting into their 2012 squad. While I might quite enjoy the experience, I certainly don't think that my participation would be a good thing for Malawian chess, and I don't think that that would change if I paid a small annual fee to the federation.

Opening the selection field to what I would guess is a significant number of English (and I imagine possibly also American, etc) players who aren't quite strong enough to represent their country but do have a granny from Glasgow and quite fancy playing some international chess would limit the opportunities for players who support the game in Scotland throughout the season to be selected. I know I've said before that selecting as strong an Olympiad team as possible should be a priority, but I don't think this would be a good thing at all.

As I've said before, if these players want to come and live here, and participate in Scottish chess, then that's fantastic, it's great to have them and I'd be delighted to see them in the team. It would be idiotic to argue that the likes of Keti and Jacob have not had a positive impact on the game in this country. However, I do believe that if we are talking about capping foreign-based players with one obligatory grandparent then we are moving towards 'ringer' territory.

Now tell me more of this plan to take money away from Junior Chess......

I think David's comment about juniors was suggesting that if we went down this route, then team performance could be better maximised by genealogists searching out the best GMs eligible to play for Scotland, rather than attempting to nurture young talent within the country. I'm fairly sure it was an intentionally slightly overblown point, but it's definitely true that if picking players who neither live in nor originate from Scotland becomes the policy of our selectors then the chances of any individual junior gaining senior international experience - which surely must be among the ultimate goals of the ambitious and promising ones: I was briefly the former, if never the latter, and I know I certainly hoped to play at an Oympiad one day - are significantly reduced, which I don't think is a good thing either.

[Phil Thomas]

Couple of facts gentlemen.

Not too sure about the adult situation but the junior selectors do have published guidelines it is not just selection on a whim.


For some years before Matthew started coaching Scotland juniors (Glorney 2009) he was a paid up member of Chess Scotland while living in England and largely inactive in Scotland. I don't recall anyone complaining at the time he he should be allowed to be a member of Chess Scotland. Nor did I hear any complaints from Scotland about him being allowed to coach our juniors.

And David Deary you imply that Hamilton have a reputation for playing ringers in their teams. As a former guest player for Hamilton in the Lanarkshire league I have no reply to make to that comment.

[David G Congalton]

Why should anyone not born in Scotland be allowed to play for any Scottish International team? The question applies to any person playing for any country which they were not born in.

[Gary McPheator]

But do you not see the argument being made by various people that those who want to play for Scotland should be in some sense part of the Scottish chess scene?

I do Hugh, and I said as such previously. I would like some sort of contribution to the game in this country, be it playing regularly in Congresses, coaching etc., be required to gain selection. I believe it unfair to use this reasoning against allowing grandparentage when those that do meet the present criteria do not have to contribute.

Opening the selection field to what I would guess is a significant number of English (and I imagine possibly also American, etc) players who aren't quite strong enough to represent their country but do have a granny from Glasgow and quite fancy playing some international chess would limit the opportunities for players who support the game in Scotland throughout the season to be selected.

This could well be a problem. However if selection guidelines stipulated that a contribution to the domestic game be essential to being considered for selection then I believe this would at least mitigate this possibility.

Now tell me more of this plan to take money away from Junior Chess......

I am afraid you have taken me too literally. I have ranted on about Junior Chess getting too much money before and the thought of it all being diverted away appealed to what constitutes as my sense of humour.

[Phil Thomas]

Why should anyone not born in Scotland be allowed to play for any Scottish International team? The question applies to any person playing for any country which they were not born in.

Because if this rule was adopted then there would be an enormous number of people around the whole unable to represent any country. Whichever set of rules is adopted and used they should not create a massive number of stateless players. Rules to require both birth in and residence in the same country is not workable.The same, goes for all sports with possible exception of Yorkshire cricket until a few years ago.

Decision taking on this sort of question is best done at an agm. It is not helpful to state in this type of thread that "many people agree with me". If those people don't go public or go to agm then they are out of the decision making progress. It has to be this way in a democracy. If you don't use your vote- then you have not voted

Surveys in the USA regularly show that more than 10% of the population believe the the earth is flat. It could well be the case that more than half a million people in Scotland believe in a flat earth. So what is to stop a substantial number of flat earthists getting to the agm to pass a resolution that Chess Scotland believes the earth to be flat.
I will answer my own question.
I, and like minded people, (there are many of them) will use a satnav to reach the venue for the agm.