Eligibility Votes - March 2022

[Ianbrownlee]

Possibly an admin could also remove the gum bumping postings about irrelevant past events to a separate thread for the purposes of clarity.

 H John,
I was asking for posters to stay on topic and look at the response i got.  I was gong to try and tidy it up John but where do I start , we seem to be getting down to what is a FIDE FIN code (despite repeated clarifications by Alex , Dougie and others) and a country's designation code. Most of the other stuff appears to be blaming someone or other, either at an AGM or in trying to fix it. Whats done is done, I wish all our efforts were channelled towards a resolution which would satisfy most of us. I think your admin worries shouldn't be a problem, If its a general FIDE rated tournament, each player must be registered with FIDE (headache goes to Dougie working with the arbiter. If its a CS event, like any FIDE event, all processes are adequately written (or should be) . The motions are an attempt as an attempt to clarify and bullet proof those rules and procedures. All constitutions, rules and procedures should be continuosly reviewd anyway which can only be a good thing. Yes, in hindsight, past events could have been handled better and all CS  is trying to do is carry out the wishes of all ts membership, and protect CS integrity.
I have nothing but the greatest respect for all CS officials, arbiters and volunteers. Yes we can get things wrong, but dont harang us for trying to get it right.

I just wish to emphasise that I do not blame anyone for any of the occurrences that have been discussed.
I'm not sure anyone does - I certainly hope not.

The problems associated the 2016 vote were the result of a systemic failure in communications. We should record the exact final wording of motions, and it should be published shortly after the AGM concludes, exactly like Alex said a few posts ago. 
That isn't the fault of any one individual, it is a process that in my opinion needs to change slightly.

There may have been other systemic problems too (Alex has made some suggestions earlier I believe).

I completely agree with your last statement too - indeed I said the same thing in post 66. I am extremely grateful to everyone involved in Scottish Chess, regardless of whether I agree with them on every issue or not.

The only reason I am asking about the 2016 motion is that it feeds directly into this.
There would be no need for long posts about it if Jim or Andy H or yourself would clarify what the official position is on it.
As things stand Alex has been left to tell us the history, which as he pointed out at the start is not his responsibility.

The honest reply Hamish is that without documentation and proper reference its a bit vague. I have been given verbal explanations and to me its all back to the AGM at 2011 when it was assumed the grandfather rule would come into effect. MT attended the AGM and the general feeling is indicated that no one wanted him without a country designation so he was given SCO. I feel this shouldnt have happened or allowed to take place but it did. However the grandfather motion failed a further twice at further meetings. There was an attempt to sort this out in 2016/2017 but this failed to take place. Fast forward to 2019 when I was tournament director/organiser and Alex was chief arbiter/congress director. The entry form there was written in some form which upon face value made MT eligible.  One of the GM's thought he was in pole position for the title due to an understanding MT wasnt eligible. It was only in the penultimate round when one player observed that MT might be eligible and asked that question. After the championship was over , a working party was established to determine what happened and make recommendations. I believe these motions are partly the result of those recommendations.  This is all down to my recollection and maybe erroneous, and again without documentation of restrictions applied I think MT should be eligible both for selection and for the title. If there is a failure to detail restrictions on MT's SCO application, then its certainly not down to him and I dont think retrospective restrictions are any solution at all. Its only one unique case and SCO allocation shouldnt have any restrictions and that was the original mistake. There was no way SCO should have been given on condition of a future condition (grandfather rule). I have read the 2011 minutes to a deep level and I'm about to do the same for 2016 and 2017

[Andy Howie]

I'd especially like an answer to that from Alex, who says the motion made Matthew eligible! 
 
The only time I have seen your suggestion that SCO code might refer to 'code 24' of the FIDE is when it is being used to claim Matthew's eligibility.
 
Cheers

It was mentioned at the AGM in 2016 (which you attended) and MT did not come into the conversation, other players that could have been affected were.

[WBuchanan]

I'd especially like an answer to that from Alex, who says the motion made Matthew eligible! 
 
The only time I have seen your suggestion that SCO code might refer to 'code 24' of the FIDE is when it is being used to claim Matthew's eligibility.
 
Cheers

It was mentioned at the AGM in 2016 (which you attended) and MT did not come into the conversation, other players that could have been affected were.

It's not minuted, just a reference to 'Country code' before Douglas's amendment eliminated it as a possibility.
 
Not sure what your point is - mine was that I've not seen a discussion about SCO (which has always meant Federation in proposed rules) where code 24 (country of origin) came up outwith this MT context. Your reply suggests there isn't one.

Sometimes in verbal discussions, someone suggests something in the chat that's actually got no bearing and someone else picks up on it anyway. That may have been what happened here.

---

Possibly an admin could also remove the gum bumping postings about irrelevant past events to a separate thread for the purposes of clarity.

 H John,
I was asking for posters to stay on topic and look at the response i got.  I was gong to try and tidy it up John but where do I start , we seem to be getting down to what is a FIDE FIN code (despite repeated clarifications by Alex , Dougie and others) and a country's designation code. Most of the other stuff appears to be blaming someone or other, either at an AGM or in trying to fix it. Whats done is done, I wish all our efforts were channelled towards a resolution which would satisfy most of us. I think your admin worries shouldn't be a problem, If its a general FIDE rated tournament, each player must be registered with FIDE (headache goes to Dougie working with the arbiter. If its a CS event, like any FIDE event, all processes are adequately written (or should be) . The motions are an attempt as an attempt to clarify and bullet proof those rules and procedures. All constitutions, rules and procedures should be continuosly reviewd anyway which can only be a good thing. Yes, in hindsight, past events could have been handled better and all CS  is trying to do is carry out the wishes of all ts membership, and protect CS integrity.
I have nothing but the greatest respect for all CS officials, arbiters and volunteers. Yes we can get things wrong, but dont harang us for trying to get it right.

I just wish to emphasise that I do not blame anyone for any of the occurrences that have been discussed.
I'm not sure anyone does - I certainly hope not.

The problems associated the 2016 vote were the result of a systemic failure in communications. We should record the exact final wording of motions, and it should be published shortly after the AGM concludes, exactly like Alex said a few posts ago. 
That isn't the fault of any one individual, it is a process that in my opinion needs to change slightly.

There may have been other systemic problems too (Alex has made some suggestions earlier I believe).

I completely agree with your last statement too - indeed I said the same thing in post 66. I am extremely grateful to everyone involved in Scottish Chess, regardless of whether I agree with them on every issue or not.

The only reason I am asking about the 2016 motion is that it feeds directly into this.
There would be no need for long posts about it if Jim or Andy H or yourself would clarify what the official position is on it.
As things stand Alex has been left to tell us the history, which as he pointed out at the start is not his responsibility.

The honest reply Hamish is that without documentation and proper reference its a bit vague. I have been given verbal explanations and to me its all back to the AGM at 2011 when it was assumed the grandfather rule would come into effect. MT attended the AGM and the general feeling is indicated that no one wanted him without a country designation so he was given SCO. I feel this shouldnt have happened or allowed to take place but it did. However the grandfather motion failed a further twice at further meetings. There was an attempt to sort this out in 2016/2017 but this failed to take place. Fast forward to 2019 when I was tournament director/organiser and Alex was chief arbiter/congress director. The entry form there was written in some form which upon face value made MT eligible.  One of the GM's thought he was in pole position for the title due to an understanding MT wasnt eligible. It was only in the penultimate round when one player observed that MT might be eligible and asked that question. After the championship was over , a working party was established to determine what happened and make recommendations. I believe these motions are partly the result of those recommendations.  This is all down to my recollection and maybe erroneous, and again without documentation of restrictions applied I think MT should be eligible both for selection and for the title. If there is a failure to detail restrictions on MT's SCO application, then its certainly not down to him and I dont think retrospective restrictions are any solution at all. Its only one unique case and SCO allocation shouldnt have any restrictions and that was the original mistake. There was no way SCO should have been given on condition of a future condition (grandfather rule). I have read the 2011 minutes to a deep level and I'm about to do the same for 2016 and 2017

A note on moderation Ian.
 
Should you be indulging in or endorsing derision about discussions?
You previously permitted and/or supported personal attacks made by senior officials.
 
You claim that past matters are off-topic, then announce your intent to have a deep look at all of them.
Dismissal of unwelcome viewpoints as 'off-topic' doesn't make for a good discussion.
 
I'm not getting at you; however, CS management have kind of claimed a view of the history in order to justify shaping the future.
 
If that view is not allowed to be questioned, members are entitled to be told so we don't waste everyone's time in debate that is going to be derailed or steered towards or away from particular outcomes or viewpoints, with CS management's help.
 
Thanks
Walter

[Ianbrownlee]

Walter
I was replying to to Hamish who asked me a specific question and also to John who are both friends and asked me reasonable questions. I’ll say this once I will not engage in discussion with you so don’t waste time and energy criticising me As a chess Scotland member I am entitled to post my opinion and as a moderator I can act when posts go off topic. As a chess Scotland director I have an opinion and am willing to share it

[WBuchanan]

I don't need to know about your other hats Ian, it was the mods hat I was questioning.

It was a fair question about allowing debate to be steered  a certain way - not though argument, but flak.

[Alan Jelfs]

Hesitant to comment here, due to the heat being generated, but here's my tuppenceworth.
I see the SCO/ENG/DEN federation designation as a "FIDE thing", allowing players to get FIDE ratings, play in FIDE-sponsored tournaments and get FIDE norms and titles.
I see the qualification for Scottish titles/Scotland representation, through residence/birth/parentage as a "Chess Scotland thing",
and that the two are separate.
As some-one who only qualifies through residence, I have no strong opinion either way and will be abstaining on the proposals.

[WBuchanan]

Walter,

I will repeat what I have said.

SCO in FIDE speak is not a code but a designation.  The code for Scotland is 24 at the start of a FIN and since you missed it too, the code for England is 4 (not 40).

To talk about having a SCO code is probably fine in everyday use but should not be used in an official document when it can be used to complicate the issue.  Your failure to grasp this point despite being made by several people seems to highlight the problem of being lax with words and emphasise the importance of being precise.  Previous imprecise motions have landed us in this situation.

The amendment by Douglas made it totally clear in all but one case.  The original motion would have meant many people's eligibility being open to interpretation.  

Can I suggest that in future any ambiguous motion is ruled incompetent immediately rather than being amended on the hoof.  It would have saved a considerable amount of time.

The minutes of an AGM can only be approved at the next AGM but it would have saved many problems if draft (full) minutes had been published soon after the original meeting.

I accept that with what I now see of the minutes, I would not have made the decision I did.  However, I maintain that is not the info I was given.  (I was doing a tournament at the time so not at the AGM.)

Hi Alex

"The amendment by Douglas made it totally clear in all but one case."
 
Which case, please.
 
Never mind 'FIDE speak' - there is no complication because SCO is the precise text for Scotland in FIDE's Federation column.
 
If we both just repeat we will never get anywhere, will we
Let me try something else...you write:
 
"To talk about having a SCO code is probably fine in everyday use but should not be used in an official document when it can be used to complicate the issue."
 
So...how did that work, when the 2019 Champs entry form said:
 
"Titles will only be awarded to those satisfying Scottish nationality (SCO) who are also members of Chess Scotland"
 
Doesn't this contradict what you just said? Or was the title being determined by Country of origin?
That would be interesting ... but I think it shows the Country of origin code 24 to be a red herring!?
 
The motion wording is precise. It can only be made 'complicated' if people take leave of their common sense - i.e. deny the meaning that not only

(i) everybody knew, but
(ii) was the exact one specified, and
(iii) it was the only one of the two 'options' you claim existed, that was not completely absurd.

Long after the AGM, a kind of technical Chinese whispers seemed to develop, with nobody looking at it in detail. It's never too late for detail...

Re, ambiguous motions - stay away from the idea, if you can't tell after five years you won't be able to tell one in five minutes.
I realize you will probably want to say the same to me... but at least I am advocating looking at the detail, not the personalities.
 
Cheers

[amuir]

The establishment seems to be backing non Scottish-born players.
Do we really want a team over the next 10 years of Turner, Aagaard, Greet, Arakhamia ,Dunnington ?
We have had no Scottish-born IMs/GMS since Eddie Dearing (IM 2004 ) & John Shaw (GM 2006)
Let's give our young players a chance to get titles and not waste a whole generation.

[hamish olson]

Thanks Ian.

Andy, I think you will find that your view is in a minority in this day and age, and not a big one.

Without commenting too much on the present case which clearly has stirred some debate and conflicting opinions around Matthew's eligibility, I think it is fair to say that the rest of your list are not even remotely controversial, and that the controversy around Matthew is not because of where he was born, but where he has lived.

I think the way to get new Scottish (not necessarily born)  IMs and GMs is to encourage (perhaps by finding sponsorship to increase prizes at congresses) our present ones to play more in Scotland (like Andrew Greet does very frequently) - if I couldn't afford to travel outside of Scotland I would have no chance rather than the low chance I currently have. 

That is a topic for another thread though - not this one.

[Willie Rutherford]

Thanks Ian.

Andy, I think you will find that your view is in a minority in this day and age, and not a big one.

Without commenting too much on the present case which clearly has stirred some debate and conflicting opinions around Matthew's eligibility, I think it is fair to say that the rest of your list are not even remotely controversial, and that the controversy around Matthew is not because of where he was born, but where he has lived.

I think the way to get new Scottish (not necessarily born)  IMs and GMs is to encourage (perhaps by finding sponsorship to increase prizes at congresses) our present ones to play more in Scotland (like Andrew Greet does very frequently) - if I couldn't afford to travel outside of Scotland I would have no chance rather than the low chance I currently have. 

That is a topic for another thread though - not this one.

Well said Hamish