Tromso Olympiad 2014

[David G Congalton]

Why not discuss who should be in the team, not who isn't ?

McKay, McNab, Shaw, Mannion, Bryson & Tate

[andyburnett]

Andy,
That is actually a rather good question!

I would like to play in an Olympiad because I think it is a great experience for any chess player to do so. I am sure that there are any number of nations that I could switch allegiance to in order to do this (small countries who just want the strongest team they can get), so why am I bothering with Scotland? Well, relatives from both sides of my family come from Scotland, I feel very at home in Scotland, I like the majority of Scottish chess players and I approve of what ChessScotland generally tries to do.

I an not sure if I was supposed to give an answer reciting Rabbie Burns and invoking the spirit of Bannockburn, but there is the simple truth.

Matt

Thanks for the honesty Matt! An intimate knowledge of Burns isn't required - iirc I mentioned to Jonathan Rowson once that his Burns quote (in '7 Deadly Chess Sins' I think?!) was wrong, and he said his mum would be mortified as she taught Burn's work in school!

The problem, as I see it, is that allowing 'non-Scots' in so easily would displace those who are working very hard to improve and make the international team. As an example, would it help Scottish chess if you and/or Andrew Greet were to be picked and perhaps Alan Tate is left out?
So Alan works harder, improves more, and then still doesn't make the team because, meanwhile, e.g. Arkady Naiditsch decides he also wants to play and represent Scotland as he has fallen out with his federation, taken a job in Scotland, whatever?

I know this has happened in many countries, and I don't want you to think I am some kind of fervent nationalist who can't see the positives in welcoming non-Scots into the fold (far from it) but I am genuinely interested in what others think of this particular situation.

What exactly is the point of international competition (between nations!) if it becomes in reality a simple 'team' competition like the European Club Cup?

[amuir]

I don't know how to put in grey previous comments :

Matt : "I have also said that if the rules were to be changed I would only play with the agreement of the rest of the team."
What % approval counts as agreement ?

David :
"McKay, McNab, Shaw, Mannion, Bryson & Tate"
Why do you not want Rowson, Greet or Dearing ?

[Matthew Turner]

Andy (Muir),
100% of the rest of the team.
Matt

[andyburnett]

I don't know how to put in grey previous comments :

Matt : "I have also said that if the rules were to be changed I would only play with the agreement of the rest of the team."
What % approval counts as agreement ?

David :
"McKay, McNab, Shaw, Mannion, Bryson & Tate"
Why do you not want Rowson, Greet or Dearing ?

I'm not David, but it looks to me like these are the top 6 rated players who are a) Scottish, b) still resident in Scotland, and c) active on the Scottish chess scene.

[Matthew Turner]

Andy Burnett,
You raise some interesting points which everybody would agree with to a certain extent. Primarily I see the point you are making is that young Scottish players need the spur of competing in the Olympiad and then hopefully the experience of competing as part of their development process. That is all great in principle, but the reality is that Roddy McKay is Scottish Champion and that the spur of Olympiad competition hasn't created lots of budding GMs over the last 20 years.
I would say that if this is a key factor for Scottish Chess then really we need to think a little bit outside the box. In my opinion this is about selection criteria not eligibility criteria. Why not say as a CS (or International Director) policy that we are going to select a Scottish European Championship team where all the players are U30 or even U25. I don't know if that will work but it might?
Matt

[andyburnett]

That's an interesting idea Matthew - the one obvious problem (though hardly insurmountable) being that the Europeans, as far as I am aware, have never received anything more than minimal funding - the younger age group mooted being the least likely to be able to afford such a venture I guess?
In general, though, I think such an idea is one of the ways to progress - even if it were to be half the team selected from u-25's. Try to mix experience with youth and see if it helps their progress.

With regard to the Olympiad specifically, I have always felt that the Scottish champion should receive an automatic invite to the team (although a minimum rating/performance level might be necessary?!).
This would, or should, encourage the participation of all the top Scottish players who have a desire to play for the national team - 2 or 3 of our best players would be shoo-ins for the team , the other 10 or so in the picture would have a definite goal to aim for.

I've still to hear a 'defence' to the point that certain players are using the system for purely personal reasons? You yourself, Matt, have argued that 'I would like to play in an Olympiad because I think it is a great experience for any chess player to do so.' (I do understand your other reasons for wishing to represent Scotland, and they are strongly in your favour.)

Agreed, I would love to play one myself, but I am not strong enough! I am about 100-150 elo short of being in the selection picture, as you probably are in England! Now, I am working hard on my chess to bridge that gap, but what happens if/when I reach it and places are taken by those with a 'lesser' claim to Scottish-ness! I have to change federation to Welsh or Jersey or Burkina Faso!? Is Scotland not becoming one of those "small countries who just want the strongest team they can get" you mention?

I've also mentioned to Andrew Greet that this discussion is taking place - hopefully he'll feel ok about joining in to explain his viewpoint.

[Matthew Turner]

Andy,
Again some very good points and I suspect we agree about 90% of this stuff. To address a number of points you have raised

1. I don't think it is a good idea that the Scottish Champion should be automatically selected for the Olympiad. This is for two reasons
a) It 'forces' some strong players to compete and enables the organisers to get away with putting on a substandard event. We should want a vibrant Scottish Championships where the top players want to compete.
b) There may be reasons why an International Director shouldn't select a player (confidential medical information for example). Forcing their hand just makes a volunteer's position untenable.

2. You still haven't heard a defence to the point that certain players are using the system for purely personal reasons - well of course not, because there isn't one - some are!

3. I wish you best of luck with your quest to gain 150 points to make it into the Olympiad team, but I would also say be careful what you wish for. To restate again I would very much like to play in an Olympiad for Scotland one day, but would I really like to play in 2034? Really it should be Murad, Kai and Vagif by then shouldn't it?

Matt

[David G Congalton]

Why do you not want Rowson, Greet or Dearing ?

Nothing personal, I just don't know any of them. If it's people I know I'm more interested than if I don't know them.

I'm not David, but it looks to me like these are the top 6 rated players who are a) Scottish, b) still resident in Scotland, and c) active on the Scottish chess scene.

I went through the grading list and my criteria were

1.Do I know if they are unavailable or not eligible?

2.Have I seen them at any chess event I've been at in the past 5 years?

[Andrew Greet]

I was alerted to this thread by Andy Burnett, who invited me to participate, presumably to put forward my 'Scottish credentials' as I do indeed hope to represent Scotland at the Tromso Olympiad this year. Firstly, let me address one of Andy's early comments.

-I noticed IM Andrew Greet changed federation last year (at a cost of 2000 Euros) from England to Scotland. When does he become eligible for selection to represent Scotland in events such as the Olympiad/Euros?

The assertion that a fee of 2000 Euros was paid to secure my transfer from the ECF is completely untrue, unless it was kept secret from me, which seems highly unlikely. My understanding is that such a fee may be applicable for a transfer of federation under certain circumstances, for instance if the original federation resists the request, but that was not at all the case when I applied to switch from England to Scotland.

With that out of the way, I will highlight the main factors that I took into consideration before making the decision to apply for a federation change with a view to representing Scotland:

1) I have been a permanent resident in Scotland since September 2008. I have been living, working and paying taxes in Scotland since that time. (For those who don't know, I have been working full-time at the publisher Quality Chess in Glasgow for almost five years now.)

2) Changing federations was not a decision I took lightly. I wanted to feel settled in Scotland and as confident as I could be that I would remain here for the foreseeable future, potentially even for the rest of my life. Scotland is now my home, and it feels right to me that I should represent this nation in competition.
I first enquired about switching federations in 2012, three-and-a-half years after moving from England. Even then, I made it clear that the first event at which I planned to represent Scotland (if selected) would be the 2014 Olympiad in Tromso. By the time that event occurs, I will have been a permanent resident in Scotland for almost six years!

3) The above points were by far the most important in my personal decision to switch federations. However, if being active on the Scottish chess scene is important to people, I could mention that I have participated in three Scottish Championships since moving here, including winning the tournament in 2010. I support my local team by playing for them in both the Glasgow and Dumbarton Leagues, and play in weekend/rapid events in Scotland when my schedule permits.

I hope that's enough to satisfy the sceptics. If further evidence of my 'Scottishness' is required, I could mention my whisky collection which now numbers in the early double figures. :-)